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Post by LFC on Jul 2, 2021 20:25:42 GMT
Since so much of what is done revolves around money I'm starting this to include all things concerning fresh water for drinking, residential use, irrigation, wildlife, and so on.
One of the links in that final paragraph is about the problems with concentrated brine from normal desalination plants. I had no idea how poor the fresh water yield was in these and how brine dumped back into the ocean could actually be a serious problem. The brine disposal site could effectively be turned into a dead zone because salt isn't the only thing that's removed.
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Post by LFC on Jan 3, 2023 21:37:38 GMT
The Colorado River is simultaneously running well below historic norms and is under increasing human need for water.
Arizona and California have enjoyed having a pretty good deal but agreements are set to expire in 2026. I suspect the negotiations over water use are going to be acrimonious at best.
Once again we see water intensive agriculture as a major problem. The farm lobby is going to screech and yell but as the largest consumers of water they are going to have to give up something. Of course it will all be a librul plot.
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Post by goldenvalley on Jan 4, 2023 0:31:25 GMT
Quite a lot of California is not dependent on the Colorado River. See this for a good graphic showing water sources and usage of water across the state.
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Post by LFC on Apr 20, 2023 22:13:29 GMT
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Post by goldenvalley on Apr 21, 2023 0:50:40 GMT
Humanity's hubris. We'll make Nature better by moving the water around to make the desert bloom!
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Post by LFC on May 24, 2023 16:51:33 GMT
Agriculture continues to be the single biggest consumer of Colorado River water. Even worse, over half of all the water taken is wasted on livestock feed like hay and alfalfa, which is often exported, which have no business being grown in the f***ing desert.
How about just growing livestock where there's rain and feed is grown without requiring scarce water resources?
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Post by LFC on May 24, 2023 16:54:05 GMT
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Post by goldenvalley on May 24, 2023 17:10:56 GMT
I think they are essentially buying water rights. Water law is arcane and 19th Century mostly based on who moved close to the water first. California water law is all snarled up with some folks having senior water rights that pretty much cannot be abridged in any way. As to the Colorado River, California has a great deal of agriculture using that water. If water is cut so is production of food and I don't mean just almonds or alfalfa but actual produce that is consumed in the US and across the world. This deal is an economic one that I suspect is based on the need to keep agriculture from tanking in those areas. You think people complain about food prices now, just wait till supplies are reduced due to lack of water in those areas. (Same with undocumented people working in the fields...people have no idea how agriculture and the prices we pay are bound up with their presence in the fields.)
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jackd
Assistant Professor
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Post by jackd on May 24, 2023 18:43:25 GMT
Are there any data available on the amount of food produced for the United States that comes from the California agricultural interests? Is there proof it couldn't be acquired elsewhere if California's water was significantly reduced?
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Post by goldenvalley on May 24, 2023 18:48:44 GMT
Are there any data available on the amount of food produced for the United States that comes from the California agricultural interests? Is there proof it couldn't be acquired elsewhere if California's water was significantly reduced? This isn't narrowed down to a specific CA region but the California Department of Food and Ag has this (of course described in $ terms not percentage of food produced except for the bold I added): I note rice is generally grown in the swampier parts of Northern California originally. It is supplemented by water from the various projects and last year in some Northern CA counties there was none produced due to lack of water. I think lots of it is exported to Japan because of the variety of rice that is grown.
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jackd
Assistant Professor
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Post by jackd on May 24, 2023 20:57:41 GMT
The amount of agricultural production devoted to export is important to the contention of California's claims that it needs the lion's share of the water to "feed the U.S." I really think the state needs to be much more specific on that point. I appreciate that jobs are at stake but that is a separate topic. Also, as you pointed out, many of those jobs go to migrant labor.
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Post by goldenvalley on May 25, 2023 2:13:58 GMT
The amount of agricultural production devoted to export is important to the contention of California's claims that it needs the lion's share of the water to "feed the U.S." I really think the state needs to be much more specific on that point. I appreciate that jobs are at stake but that is a separate topic. Also, as you pointed out, many of those jobs go to migrant labor. I am under no misimpression...it is about money...not jobs. But the price of produce is a sticking point...that does impact the US...large sales overseas has an impact on American prices too.
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jackd
Assistant Professor
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Post by jackd on May 25, 2023 2:32:21 GMT
Maybe Mexico, Latin America generally, and Florida plus other southern states can feed America pretty well.
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AnBr
Associate Professor
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Post by AnBr on May 25, 2023 12:19:17 GMT
The "feed the US" argument is pretty much bullshit. CA's dominance largely came from locking down produce markets with the promise of winter produce. The Midwest and east used to have thriving produce farms. Now they are largely nonexistant. There is plenty of water here with little to no need of irrigation. Without that dominance produce farms in the East could flourish again. Winter produce could easily come from other markets and over production for preservation by freezing, canning, dehydration, etc. Greenhouse hydroponics already provide winter tomatoes as far north as from Canada. As warming increases this will only increase the growing season.
As it is, we pay for produce that was grown with huge subsidies from the rest of us for the huge water infrastructure that CA agriculture cannot survive without. All to be provided with inferior produce picked green and shipped across the country. Local produce is almost always superior to such product.
Climate change will dictate changes to the ways we have used in the past. We will have to move water intensive operations to places where we have, you know, water.
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Post by LFC on May 25, 2023 14:31:38 GMT
The conversation about produce is a red herring. If you go back to the link and look at the graphic it's clear that the issue is that 2/3 of the water taken from the Colorado River goes to cattle feed (55%) and cotton (11%), both of which shouldn't be grown in the desert especially when there's a water shortage. Take out just those two crops and the problem virtually goes away. Grain takes another 6%, so that's a total of 72% of the water taken by just few crops. Almonds? Avocados? Lettuce? Tomatoes? All of them and everything else being irrigated combined take just 6% of the water pulled from the Colorado River.
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Post by goldenvalley on May 25, 2023 14:57:12 GMT
The conversation about produce is a red herring. If you go back to the link and look at the graphic it's clear that the issue is that 2/3 of the water taken from the Colorado River goes to cattle feed (55%) and cotton (11%), both of which shouldn't be grown in the desert especially when there's a water shortage. Take out just those two crops and the problem virtually goes away. Grain takes another 6%, so that's a total of 72% of the water taken by just few crops. Almonds? Avocados? Lettuce? Tomatoes? All of them and everything else being irrigated combined take just 6% of the water pulled from the Colorado River. At one time California weather was always good for produce unlike places in the East. That was part of the appeal...soil good, weather good, just add water...and the water was subsidized. Weather patterns are changing all over the country making it more difficult to produce a consistent (consistently bad or good) product meaning more variable prices and lack of supply sometimes. Shifting to indoor growing can help...but that takes electricity to keep the sun shining at the right times and the optimum temperatures in the building. That isn't cheap.
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jackd
Assistant Professor
Posts: 813
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Post by jackd on May 25, 2023 16:02:14 GMT
But the point is that too much water is used for cattle feed, cotton and grain.
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Post by goldenvalley on May 25, 2023 16:36:14 GMT
But the point is that too much water is used for cattle feed, cotton and grain. I agree with that point. Wanted to highlight the minor point about produce being grown in places other than CA. The cattle industry is destructive environmentally...not to sound all vegetarian but we eat too much beef and maybe too much dairy which has led us to intensive feed lots etc including the farming of alfalfa in dry places. Cotton...I don't fully understand. Apparently the long staple cotton is more desirable and/or useful for what we use it for...the stuff traditionally grown in the South (probably for reasons related to weather/climate) isn't so useful. The environmental damage caused by cotton growing is huge. Read The King of California, JG Bosewell and the Making of a Secret Empire for a view of all that and more.
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Post by LFC on May 25, 2023 16:40:50 GMT
At one time California weather was always good for produce unlike places in the East. That was part of the appeal...soil good, weather good, just add water...and the water was subsidized. Again, produce isn't the issue. It's growing water intensive crops like hay, alfalfa, and cotton in vast quantities in the desert. Look at the graphic and look at the percentages. This amount pulled from the Colorado for these crops are so vast that talking about problems with "produce" completely misses the point. Produce isn't a problem. Residential use isn't a problem. Growing cattle feed in a desert instead of places where these things grow well due to actual rainfall is the primary problem and that's what the solution needs to target.
Needless to say those with a vested interested in growing stupid, wasteful desert crops with a highly subsidized, failing resource would like to pit the residential and other very low usage groups against each other while ducking responsibility. That's just to be expected.
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