The Sickness of Christian Politics & Christian Nationalism

[RichTBikkies]

It's 0040 BST on Wednesday 14th July (Bastille Day!) and past my bed-time. So, up the wooden hills to Bedfordshire for me! More tomorrow on the Meaning of Life.

[LFC]

Jul 13, 2021 23:39:57 GMT RichTBikkies said:

Jul 13, 2021 23:18:23 GMT LFC said:

When I say "worked well" I mean in my own life. The way I approach my marriage is a good example. I generally view it as working well when it makes her happy but does not make me unhappy. There's a reward, a big one, to seeing her happy. It helps that she feels the same way. The result is a marriage the likes of which I've only seen in my own parents. I saw what they had, knew that's what I wanted, and did what it took to get there. Maybe that's why it took me until age 26 to finally find the right woman. Heck, I hadn't even been head over heels before that and now 34 years later I can honestly say that even with some of the hardships we've faced I've never had even a remote second guess on my choice.

That looks like a lot of babbling. I hope it makes sense. I never really put much thought into whether or not specific sources of "morality" guided me. I have seen horrible outcomes when people have clung to a single source and interpreter though.

Not babbling at all. Very moving and to the point. Thank you.

Speaking of marriage it's been 31 years today!

[Bact PhD]

Jul 14, 2021 13:07:29 GMT LFC said:

Jul 13, 2021 23:39:57 GMT RichTBikkies said:

Not babbling at all. Very moving and to the point. Thank you.

Speaking of marriage it's been 31 years today!

Congrats!

[andydp]

Jul 14, 2021 14:34:14 GMT Bact PhD said:

Jul 14, 2021 13:07:29 GMT LFC said:

Speaking of marriage it's been 31 years today!

Congrats!

Happy Anniversary you lovebirds !!

[Bact PhD]

Jul 13, 2021 23:18:23 GMT LFC said:

Jul 13, 2021 22:47:42 GMT RichTBikkies said:

But what are these "sources of guidance"? How does one determine if they "worked well in the past"? The latter phrase suggests "criteria" to me. Can one have criteria that do not amount to, or at least derive from, "philosophy, ideology or concept"? Perhaps you, LFC, could mention some sources of guidance that you use fairly regularly, and explain how you decided that they worked well for in the past? (If possible, without using the word "obvious" because I feel it would beg too many questions at this juncture).

Me? I'm more a scientific experiment kind of guy. Try something, see if it works, and if so continue with it. I don't have a particular written philosophy et al that I read for guidance. My parents raised me with a set of rules, some that came with their Catholic religion and others which did not. Some I accepted and others I didn't. I'm an amalgam of things I've picked up without actually knowing most of the sources. I think that may be why the belief that "THIS is THE source" bothers me so much. I don't believe a flawless guide to life exists and I believe that some of the biggest ones cited are brimming with flaws.

I'd say something similar occurred in my case. There were certain things I picked up sort of by osmosis from my parents (one staunchly Catholic, but influenced by Unitarian relatives; one assuredly agnostic, but at least somewhat influenced by the Protestantism of his youth); there were certain ideas from my parents that I ended up rejecting by mid-life. I would be lying if I said my Catholic upbringing didn't influence my way of looking at things, but "influencing the viewpoints and choices of one individual" isn't the same as "dictating the choices of every member of society."

That looks like a lot of babbling. I hope it makes sense. I never really put much thought into whether or not specific sources of "morality" guided me. I have seen horrible outcomes when people have clung to a single source and interpreter though.

Agreed re the single source and interpreter.

Somehow, I'm reminded of the old Carlin bit "Why We Don't Need Ten Commandments":

[LFC]

Jul 14, 2021 15:17:21 GMT Bact PhD said:

Somehow, I'm reminded of the old Carlin bit "Why We Don't Need Ten Commandments":

It's been a long time but I've had multiple online discussions with people trying to say that the basis of American law was the Ten Commandments. My instant reply was "You need to read them again, this time for comprehension." The first 4 are religious so nope. Honor your mother and father? How nice. Again, nope. No coveting? That's 6 down. No adultery? Not anymore but admittedly it's on squishier ground. No murder, theft, or "false witness." OK, OK, and only under oath or when filing a police report.

Now let's look at those last 4 and ask ourselves, are they really original to the Ten Commandments or are they some of the most universal guardrails of behavior historically cutting across multiple civilizations that never even knew each other existed? To sum it up, the most cursory reading makes it abundantly clear that saying the Ten Commandments are the basis of our legal system is clearly "bearing false witness." Just sayin'.

[AnBr]

[Deleted]

Not terribly out-of-the-ordinary or difficult for people who extol the virtues of willingness to sacrifice one's child to humor God. Insane is still the appropriate description.

[LFC]

Now that half of SCOTUS is from the god squad the Christianists are demanding that they be allowed to ram religion down our throats.

City vehicles in Chesapeake, Virginia, will soon be getting religion.

At a meeting on July 13, 2021, city councilors unanimously voted in favor of a proposal that would see the official motto of the U.S., “In God We Trust,” emblazoned on every city-owned car and truck, at an estimated cost to taxpayers of US$87,000.

Meanwhile, the state of Mississippi is preparing to defend in court its insistence that all citizens, unless they pay a fee for an alternative, must display the same four-word phrase on their license plates. Gov. Tate Reeves vowed last month to take the issue “all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court should we have to.”

Expect a huge flury of magnetic bumper stickers being created that will mock the shit out of the "In God We Trust" license plates.

[AnBr]

At first I read that as "In God We Thrust".

[pnwguy]

Jul 18, 2021 13:08:14 GMT AnBr said:

At first I read that as "In God We Thrust".

That would be the missionary position on the subject 😉

[AnBr]

Holy hand maiden's tale!

[AnBr]

[Deleted]

You shouldn't be surprised. According to a an ex Fox News personality, with relevance once and now seeking desperately to become relevant once more, Santa is white and it only stands to reason God must be white. No wonder immaculate conception resulted in a blue-eyed white baby. See? Not a puzzle.

[LFC]

Interesting take on the people, particularly Evangelicals, who are drawn to authoritarianism. The discussion is a response to one journalists interpretation that loneliness draws people to these types of movements and that more engagement is required. The author makes a counter case that many of these people are in fact in highly social groups like Evangelical churches but and engagement won't move the needle even a bit because of how they've been taught to function since they were infants.

Like I said, Michelle Goldberg is a quintessential liberal. She's reading Cox's findings as loneliness causing authoritarianism. It's the reverse, though. How can I be so sure? If loneliness causes authoritarianism, what are potential solutions? Among them would be more social networks, more community, more human bonding, and so on, right?

Guess what? White evangelical Protestants are very social, very communal and very bonded by religion and conviction. God over Man, men over women, black over white, etc.—God's law is the basis for their "normal social relationships." White evangelical Protestants are, moreover, united by their collective authoritarian belief that they have been chosen by God to rule America in God's name for the purpose of hastening the End Times, so that anything is justified as long as it serves Him. Put more plainly, nothing matters but authority and power. There are plenty of lonely people in this world, but making them less lonely isn't going to make many of them less fascist.

How can the authoritarian be alienated from her nation but especially herself while at the same time appear to find connection in communities like white evangelical Protestants? That's a very good question! It gets to the heart of the real problem. The authoritarian mind is taught to never ever ever come to its own conclusions about the world. Truth is whatever Dear Leader says, not what your eyes and ears tell you. This "education" begins before birth and lasts a lifetime. As a consequence, there's no such thing as independent thinking. There's no such thing as freedom of choice. In the collective, there's no such thing as you. As a result, you will always be lonely. Big rallies might seem communal, but they're illusory. You're filling a hole that can't be filled.

Here's a point that I think makes a lot of sense and which I find very scary. It goes straight to the heart of quote "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities." They've been programmed to believe there's a greater purpose and they'll cling to whichever one comes past. All else is secondary to this greater purpose. And nothing drives that quite like abusive religions.

"Toward the end of Bender's book, Saundra reappears," writes Goldberg, referring to a Trump supporter mentioned earlier. "She'd just been at the Capitol for the Jan. 6 insurrection and seemed ready for more. 'Tell us where we need to be, and we just drop everything and we go,' she says. 'Nobody cares about if they have to work. Nobody cares about anything.' If you give people's life meaning, they'll give you everything." I don't know why we should read this in any way that's not literal. Saundra says she doesn't care about anything, because she doesn't. Sympathy won't change that.

The thing about quintessential liberals like Michelle Goldberg is they don't imagine, probably because they can't imagine, human relationships completely devoid of the principle of political equality between and among individuals. They can't imagine being uncertain of who they are in the absence of authority. When you don't or can't imagine such a life, the authoritarian mind can seem so confounding that you search for some concrete reason for its suicidal behavior. To the liberal, loneliness seems to be rational cause for authoritarianism. The truth, however, is far uglier, scarier and more dangerous to democracy than most people, not just liberals, seem to know. Nothing causes authoritarianism. It has always been here. It always will be here.

[pnwguy]

Rawstory is often a good aggregator of stories, but they sure sell ad space to some of the worse click-baiters and counter-programmers.

This is the problem with journalism in the 21st century -- reliable funding.

[LFC]

Jul 23, 2021 15:39:31 GMT pnwguy said:

Rawstory is often a good aggregator of stories, but they sure sell ad space to some of the worse click-baiters and counter-programmers.

This is the problem with journalism in the 21st century -- reliable funding.

I won't visit without my ad blocker, tracker blocker, and auto-play video blocker on. There was a period of time where I wouldn't visit at all because it was so bad even with all of those running. They were serving up 50+ ad hits, 20+ trackers, and autoplays that dodged my blocker. If I had 10 story tabs open (that's how I use sites like that) my machine would grind to a halt plus individual pages would display slooooowwwwly as it rendered one animated ad after another. Apparently they realized they went too far and have backed off a bit.

[AnBr]

Jul 23, 2021 15:26:45 GMT LFC said:

Interesting take on the people, particularly Evangelicals, who are drawn to authoritarianism. The discussion is a response to one journalists interpretation that loneliness draws people to these types of movements and that more engagement is required. The author makes a counter case that many of these people are in fact in highly social groups like Evangelical churches but and engagement won't move the needle even a bit because of how they've been taught to function since they were infants.

I remember seeing some statistics on who gives the most. On the surface it seems to be members from various churches, it turns out that any highly social group has the same effect, even if non-religious.

[LFC]

Jul 23, 2021 22:51:35 GMT AnBr said:

I remember seeing some statistics on who gives the most. On the surface it seems to be members from various churches, it turns out that any highly social group has the same effect, even if non-religious.

I'd be interested in seeing those numbers after you subtract the "charitable" donations to their own churches which is basically for the upkeep of their clubhouse, not for an actual charitable cause. Mitt Romney gave a lot of money to "charity" which meant the Mormon Church.

[AnBr]

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Attachments:

[andydp]

Stop me if you heard this before:

Young lady is raped and victimized by adult church youth director.  She goes public and...is accused of "leading the adult on".

Lawsuit: Troy church ignored youth pastor's abuse, claimed child 'led him on'

At the time of the abuse, the lawsuit said, Hallock’s wife sent the child several letters acknowledging that she had informed the leadership of Grace Baptist Church of Hallock’s involvement with the child.

“Rather than inquire as to why (the child) was receiving letters from the Pastor Larry Hallock’s wife, the church leadership did nothing,” the lawsuit said. “Later when the abuse came to light, they stated the plaintiff had ‘led him on.’ More, Grace Baptist Church leadership has stated because plaintiff didn’t ‘cry for help’ she was culpable for the abuse perpetrated upon her.”


WAIT !  THERE'S MORE !!


Grace Baptist Church and its pastor, the Rev. John Koletas, have attracted attention in the past for AR-15 rife giveaways,*** including one in late June 2020 amid protests in the aftermath of the May 25, 2020, police killing of George Floyd in Minneapolis. Police were called after protesters blocked the door of the church.

(*** A fitting way to pay tribute to the "Prince of Peace".)

www.timesunion.com/news/article/Lawsuit-Troy-church-ignored-youth-pastor-s-16414034.php?cmpid=115195&utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_content=headlines&utm_campaign=tu_dailyheadlines&sid=593181aa3f92a45314a6107f

[LFC]

Aug 28, 2021 15:18:55 GMT andydp said:

Stop me if you heard this before:

Boys who never grew up and the system that supports them.

[goldenvalley]

Aug 28, 2021 15:18:55 GMT andydp said:

Stop me if you heard this before:

Young lady is raped and victimized by adult church youth director.  She goes public and...is accused of "leading the adult on".

But women are evil and clearly the devil was in this young lady. She deserves no protection.

[AnBr]

Aug 28, 2021 18:40:34 GMT goldenvalley said:

But women are evil and clearly the devil was in this young lady. She deserves no protection.

[LFC]

Aug 28, 2021 18:40:34 GMT goldenvalley said:

But women are evil and clearly the devil was in this young lady. She deserves no protection.

"Original sin." They blame women for men's lack of self control right out of the gate.