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Post by LFC on Jun 25, 2021 21:06:47 GMT
Why did Dems decide to hack out the hard infrastructure into a separate bill at all? If they were going to pass a reconciliation bill, why include Republicans? The only way this process makes sense is if moderate Dems insisted on it. And, you know, now the GOP has talking points about...well, whatever they're crying about...so those moderate Dems are the ones who got played. I really don't get that position. Other than Manchin and Sinema who have egg on their face now that the bad faith screeching of the GOP is in full view I don't see how any other Dems got played. There were only two scenarios I can see happening.
1) (Didn't Happen) Dems go full speed ahead on just reconciliation.
2) (Existing) Dems give Manchin and Sinema a chance to work things out and Republicans to prove they want to actually accomplish something for the country. Republicans make a show, blow it up, refuse to vote for their own bill, and the Dems go full speed ahead on just reconciliation.
What part am I missing? It's certainly nothing to do with the MAGAts because they're automatons who were programmed long ago. As long as Manchin or Sinema don't burn it to the ground the Dems are in a better position for 2022 than if they took the go it alone approach. "The Republicans voted against their own bill but don't worry we got it done." It's certainly better than "We ignored the Republicans and got it done."
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jackd
Assistant Professor
Posts: 813
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Post by jackd on Jun 25, 2021 21:08:54 GMT
Indy,you were the one suggesting an empty shell. Clearly, if the House passes a complete bill and sends it to the 'Senate, there's no problem. Nancy Pelosi had stated she wasn't going to send the bipartisan bill to the floor until the reconciliation bill was passed in the Senate. The problem at the time she said that was that Manchin and Sinema were not publicly on board on reconciliation. Now they, or at least Manchin, apparently are. Whether they are if the bipartisan bill doesn't pass is unknown to me. This seems to be boiling down to the Republicans in the Senate refusing to pass the bipartisan bill and Democrats assuming they've got their Senators on board with the Reconciliation bill regardless. I hope they're right but, as my Dad used to say about fishing, it doesn't count until it's in the box.
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Post by indy on Jun 25, 2021 22:23:28 GMT
Why did Dems decide to hack out the hard infrastructure into a separate bill at all? If they were going to pass a reconciliation bill, why include Republicans? The only way this process makes sense is if moderate Dems insisted on it. And, you know, now the GOP has talking points about...well, whatever they're crying about...so those moderate Dems are the ones who got played. I really don't get that position. Other than Manchin and Sinema who have egg on their face now that the bad faith screeching of the GOP is in full view I don't see how any other Dems got played. There were only two scenarios I can see happening.
1) (Didn't Happen) Dems go full speed ahead on just reconciliation.
2) (Existing) Dems give Manchin and Sinema a chance to work things out and Republicans to prove they want to actually accomplish something for the country. Republicans make a show, blow it up, refuse to vote for their own bill, and the Dems go full speed ahead on just reconciliation.
What part am I missing? It's certainly nothing to do with the MAGAts because they're automatons who were programmed long ago. As long as Manchin or Sinema don't burn it to the ground the Dems are in a better position for 2022 than if they took the go it alone approach. "The Republicans voted against their own bill but don't worry we got it done." It's certainly better than "We ignored the Republicans and got it done."
Well, Manchin and Sinema (along with some others because there are more) is who I was referring to, so maybe moderate dems is the wrong moniker to use. MySpace Mob? Napster Posse? Something that is more properly reflective of people living in the past.
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Post by indy on Jun 25, 2021 22:30:29 GMT
Indy,you were the one suggesting an empty shell. Clearly, if the House passes a complete bill and sends it to the 'Senate, there's no problem. Nancy Pelosi had stated she wasn't going to send the bipartisan bill to the floor until the reconciliation bill was passed in the Senate. The problem at the time she said that was that Manchin and Sinema were not publicly on board on reconciliation. Now they, or at least Manchin, apparently are. Whether they are if the bipartisan bill doesn't pass is unknown to me. This seems to be boiling down to the Republicans in the Senate refusing to pass the bipartisan bill and Democrats assuming they've got their Senators on board with the Reconciliation bill regardless. I hope they're right but, as my Dad used to say about fishing, it doesn't count until it's in the box. Ah OK. I was referring to using that as a vehicle for the bipartisan bill, not the reconciliation bill.
I have no idea obviously what the chances of a reconciliation bill are, regardless of whether or not Republicans actually join on passing the bipartisan bill. I do think this attempt for bipartisanship was a prerequisite to even get Manchin and the rest to the table to consider reconciliation. But even after they are at the table, anything can happen, so I didn't mean to imply I thought it was actually going to happen, only that there is a dance of some sort going on.
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jackd
Assistant Professor
Posts: 813
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Post by jackd on Jun 26, 2021 23:43:00 GMT
Now, President Biden is walking back his statement that he wouldn't sign one without the other. Republican Senate outrage seems to have gotten his attention. Also, Manchin recently made noises about the reconciliation bill being "too big". No telling where this ends up.
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Post by LFC on Jun 28, 2021 17:09:27 GMT
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Post by LFC on Jun 28, 2021 17:15:16 GMT
TPM describes the situation and says that the narrative that Biden pulled a fast one was never true. I thought he and Pelosi had but didn't realize just how common the knowledge of how this was proceeding really was throughout all of Congress. This is a great explanation. It also shows that Collins is still a pandering piece of shit.
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Post by LFC on Jun 28, 2021 17:17:55 GMT
McConnell is melting down, as expected, over the fact that the Democrats no longer really believe in him, his party, their good faith, or their claims of bipartisanship. They're going it mostly alone because Moscow Mitch has proven for over a decade that this is the most reasonable path to take. Ignoring MM defangs him so he has to puff out his throat pouch to look big and threatening but he's mostly being ignored.
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Post by LFC on Jun 28, 2021 17:22:25 GMT
Biden explains ... well, basic politics. The thought that this is anything new under the sun is absurd, no matter how many Republicans play the butthurt card. And several Republicans are now making their own conciliatory noises.
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jackd
Assistant Professor
Posts: 813
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Post by jackd on Jun 28, 2021 17:38:55 GMT
I'm afraid I can't buy the TPM "explanation" of Biden's remarks and how the initial ones were heard by Republicans and progressive Democrats alike. In today's New York Times Bret Stephens characterized it as Biden initially getting out over his skis. I think that's right. It's not as though President Biden hasn't "mis-spoken" before. It does seem the problem has been cured by his subsequent statement. Now it seems to be a question of whether Manchin and Sinema will agree to the reconciliation effort, at least as to its size.
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Post by LFC on Jun 28, 2021 17:56:08 GMT
I'm afraid I can't buy the TPM "explanation" of Biden's remarks and how the initial ones were heard by Republicans and progressive Democrats alike. In today's New York Times Bret Stephens characterized it as Biden initially getting out over his skis. I think that's right. It's not as though President Biden hasn't "mis-spoken" before. It does seem the problem has been cured by his subsequent statement. It's all in the hands of Congressional Democrats. He said he'd sign the bill if it reaches his desk. Pelosi said it won't reach his desk without a corresponding reconciliation bill. I literally see nothing here that isn't pretty standard political machinations. The thought that this is some big scandal is ridiculous. Now it seems to be a question of whether Manchin and Sinema will agree to the reconciliation effort, at least as to its size. But hasn't that always been the question literally for months?
On a follow-up TPM reports that Moscow Mitch just tipped his hand by demanding that the Democrats commit to not using reconciliation to pass their priorities. That's pretty brazen even for the High Priest of Hypocrisy. So the MSM fell into it, reported that it was all about surprise linkage, and MM just confirmed that it's really about his demand that he be allowed to set the Democrats' agenda. It's like a bad joke.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2021 18:59:02 GMT
Democrats should agree to McConnell's condition, with one of their own. No Republican Senator should use or threaten to use or even mention the word filibuster under any circumstance for the next 4 years. If both parties agree then Bob's your uncle.
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Post by LFC on Jun 28, 2021 19:18:06 GMT
No Republican Senator should use or threaten to use or even mention the word filibuster under any circumstance for the next 4 years. I have video of Mitch McConnell should he lose the minority veto power of the filibuster.
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Post by goldenvalley on Jun 28, 2021 19:38:50 GMT
Once again the 24/7 news cycle precludes thoughtful reporting and knowledge that political theater is just that…theater. Sitting back to watch as the events unfold is simply not an option ever considered in the drive to get the latest gossip and spun statements in the air and online.
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Post by LFC on Jun 29, 2021 15:58:01 GMT
More from TPM on the Republicans' faux outrage including quotes from multiple Congressional GOPers, including Moscow Mitch, who knew that both bills were being pushed all along. Now MM is demanding that the Dems don't pass a reconciliation bill with their own priorities.
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Post by LFC on Jul 6, 2021 14:28:46 GMT
WTF is wrong with Democrats? If you can't grasp that at this point you're in the midst of all-out trench warfare and Republicans have intentionally nuked bipartisanship then you really should just leave office and allow a realist to take your seat. And this time it's not even Manchin or Sinema.
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Post by goldenvalley on Jul 6, 2021 15:36:42 GMT
WTF is wrong with Democrats? If you can't grasp that at this point you're in the midst of all-out trench warfare and Republicans have intentionally nuked bipartisanship then you really should just leave office and allow a realist to take your seat. And this time it's not even Manchin or Sinema. I think they're trying to go over the heads of the Washington DC politicians to the voters to build up local public support. Then they can point to the polling and say the constituents want this so you should vote for the bills and if you don't, then the constituents will be less likely to re-elect you. It's a miscalculation. The desire to stick it to the Dems is too great.
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Post by LFC on Jul 13, 2021 15:39:02 GMT
Greg Sargent discussed some moderate Dems rumbling about reducing the cost of the infrastructure bill. He wants them pushed to justify reducing or eliminating specific funding provisions for their reduction, not just a mindless "I don't like that number" reduction. Makes sense. Anything else is intellectually lazy and politically cowardly. He also warned them to remember 2010 and the Affordable Care Act where mindless spending level demands caused a number of problems.
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jackd
Assistant Professor
Posts: 813
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Post by jackd on Jul 13, 2021 19:34:27 GMT
You can't always get what you want.
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Post by LFC on Jul 14, 2021 13:23:04 GMT
Senate Democrats have reached a deal.
Republicans are, as expected, looking to bail on the "bipartisan" deal because it doesn't let them control everything else the Democrats do. Suck it up, buttercups. You're the ones who gave us Trump, Trump proved to be a train wreck, we then we had another election, and elections have consequences.
Everybody who said the Republicans were bargaining in bad faith, even the so-called "moderate" ones, is being proven correct. They just can't help themselves. Not getting things done that help the nation is part and parcel of being Republican now.
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Post by LFC on Jul 19, 2021 16:51:15 GMT
Time to shit or get off the pot, Republicans. Don't like it? Feeling rushed? Too f***ing bad. You spent a quarter century burning your trustworthiness to the ground. You don't get to pick it up out of the burning ashes like it never happened.
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Post by LFC on Jul 19, 2021 20:54:34 GMT
TPM's headline says it all.
Schumer isn't going to be their chump and allow them to drag this out for another 6 months. If they want this they have to compromise, something they've already clearly refused to do on funding. And if they don't want to compromise then there's no reason to continue talking to them. Just dump the bill and head for reconciliation while saying, "Hey, we tried but they just couldn't get their act together."
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Post by LFC on Jul 20, 2021 16:16:51 GMT
Josh Marshall gives his take on the current bipartisan squabbling vs. the Democratic reconciliation bill. In full:
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jackd
Assistant Professor
Posts: 813
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Post by jackd on Jul 20, 2021 17:42:48 GMT
It's the only game available so they are trying to use it.
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Post by Traveler on Jul 21, 2021 14:10:23 GMT
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