pnwguy
Associate Professor
Posts: 1,447
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Post by pnwguy on May 3, 2022 16:22:34 GMT
It's all irrelevant; Alito says Roe is dead! Not unexpected. Now I wonder how many other cases on things like contraception and single sex marriage are working their way up through the system. The words contraception and single sex marriage don't appear in the Constitution, nor does privacy. Let's all run back to the 1800s when everyone knew their places and landowners ruled the country. Allowing women to vote isn't in the Constitution either, but conservatives will just say that's why the 19th amendment had to be passed and ratified. And to some extent, I'd have to agree with them, that amendments were the intended mechanism for legal evolution. Of course, that's when it only took 9 state legislatures to ratify an amendment, before the era of political parties, full time lobbyists, and 24x7 Grievance News. Much like I think our founders would have seen Citizens United as a dysfunction they couldn't have predicted in 1787, I think if they have visited the future in a time machine, they would have crafted things differently. |
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Post by LFC on May 3, 2022 17:02:44 GMT
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Post by LFC on May 3, 2022 20:44:03 GMT
Time for what I'm pretty sure is a repeat. |
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Post by LFC on May 4, 2022 16:47:16 GMT
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Post by LFC on May 4, 2022 17:55:03 GMT
The right seems to have a selective (i.e. non-existent) memory. The left is furious, is screaming, and will be protesting. The right back when Roe was first decided? They went violent. Read some of the comments from people who worked in family planning clinics.
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Post by LFC on May 4, 2022 17:58:10 GMT
Some figures were updated by a commenter. |
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Post by LFC on May 4, 2022 18:48:44 GMT
Read this quote and realize it's from a man who had to pay for sex, including with a minor.
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Post by goldenvalley on May 4, 2022 20:17:35 GMT
Read this quote and realize it's from a man who had to pay for sex, including with a minor. He's a man's man...only sleeps with cute young things ( that he pays for). Not gonna waste his precious fluid on some dried up bluestocking. |
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pnwguy
Associate Professor
Posts: 1,447
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Post by pnwguy on May 4, 2022 21:04:50 GMT
Read this quote and realize it's from a man who had to pay for sex, including with a minor. He's a man's man...only sleeps with cute young dumb things ( that he pays for). Not gonna waste his precious fluid on some dried up bluestocking. FIFY |
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AnBr
Associate Professor
Posts: 1,819
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Post by AnBr on May 4, 2022 21:38:46 GMT
The Republican party has become a death cult.
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Post by Albert on May 5, 2022 13:28:03 GMT
The Republican party has become a death cult. As compared to the Democratic Party, which has been promising its faithful that it would defend abortion for 50 years, and has not lifted a finger to do. At least the death cult on the right delivers the red meat to their base, whereas the Democratic Party will issue fundraiser emails with dramatic messages about abortion, and then do absolute nothing to follow up.
The Democratic Party and American liberals are some of the most impotent losers I've ever seen, as someone who follows politics in the international press.
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andydp
Tenured Full Professor
Posts: 3,010
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Post by andydp on May 5, 2022 13:32:07 GMT
The Republican party has become a death cult. As compared to the Democratic Party, which has been promising its faithful that it would defend abortion for 50 years, and has not lifted a finger to do. At least the death cult on the right delivers the red meat to their base, whereas the Democratic Party will issue fundraiser emails with dramatic messages about abortion, and then do absolute nothing to follow up.
The Democratic Party and American liberals are some of the most impotent losers I've ever seen, as someone who follows politics in the international press.
A bit hard to do when the legislature's marching order was "anything Pres Obama wants, we're against." |
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Post by Albert on May 5, 2022 13:44:59 GMT
As compared to the Democratic Party, which has been promising its faithful that it would defend abortion for 50 years, and has not lifted a finger to do. At least the death cult on the right delivers the red meat to their base, whereas the Democratic Party will issue fundraiser emails with dramatic messages about abortion, and then do absolute nothing to follow up.
The Democratic Party and American liberals are some of the most impotent losers I've ever seen, as someone who follows politics in the international press.
A bit hard to do when the legislature's marching order was "anything Pres Obama wants, we're against."
A pretty weak excuse. Obama had a supermajority, and barring that at least a reconciliation proof majority. If abortion rights are really as important as Democratic Party fundraisers pretend they are, and if the GOP really is a fascist death cult, then he should have had a day 1 agenda, or simply fired the purely *advisory position of the senate parliamentarian* and replaced them with someone who looked the other way (something which the Gop has done when it suited their purposes). The GOP play for keeps, the Democrats are complacent nonchalant people who only treat politics as a brief pit stop before they retire to become pop culture celebrities who collect their millions from this or that book/podcast/documentary deal.
I still remember the day that Obama nominated Garland, most liberals, including Charles from TRS hailed it as a 4D chess genius maneuver which would humiliate the GOP since Garland was oh so moderate, that the electorate would turn against the GOP for not giving him a hearing, especially since people like Hatch had said on record they'd vote for him. How silly that all looks now.
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andydp
Tenured Full Professor
Posts: 3,010
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Post by andydp on May 5, 2022 13:51:06 GMT
A bit hard to do when the legislature's marching order was "anything Pres Obama wants, we're against."
A pretty weak excuse. Obama had a supermajority, and barring that at least a reconciliation proof majority. If abortion rights are really as important as Democratic Party fundraisers pretend they are, and if the GOP really is a fascist death cult, then he should have had a day 1 agenda, or simply fired the purely *advisory position of the senate parliamentarian* and replaced them with someone who looked the other way (something which the Gop has done when it suited their purposes). The GOP play for keeps, the Democrats are complacent nonchalant people who only treat politics as a brief pit stop before they retire to become pop culture celebrities who collect their millions from this or that book/podcast/documentary deal.
I still remember the day that Obama nominated Garland, most liberals, including Charles from TRS hailed it as a 4D chess genius maneuver which would humiliate the GOP since Garland was oh so moderate, that the electorate would turn against the GOP for not giving him a hearing, especially since people like Hatch had said on record they'd vote for him. How silly that all looks now.
You're forgetting the filibuster rule in the Senate. (Just like this year's efforts) The "supermajority was only for a few months and the GOP did their best to delay anything. How the ACA passed was a miracle but its no secret what the GOP wants to do with it. |
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Post by goldenvalley on May 5, 2022 15:48:03 GMT
There are a lot of reasons no action to protect abortion legislatively ever happened. Roe was a 7-2 decision; that makes it look strong as a precedent. Abortion opposition was seen as a tool to keep certain groups donating to and voting for Republicans. The Reps wouldn't kill the golden goose would they?
Why energize that group of people by proposing legislation which might force less committed Reps to take the side of anti abortion to save their political backsides? Public opinion polls consistently show most Americans supported abortion though the outlines of what they thought was permissible is fuzzy. So again, why would Reps prompt a battle on this?
Finally, abortion is a woman's thing...sorta icky plus only bad girls need it. People accepted the framing that abortion was a shameful end to a shameful situation, something to be whispered about, not discussed in the public sphere. Most politicians didn't want to talk about it except some FemiNazi type female politicians.
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AnBr
Associate Professor
Posts: 1,819
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Post by AnBr on May 5, 2022 22:08:01 GMT
The Republican party has become a death cult. As compared to the Democratic Party, which has been promising its faithful that it would defend abortion for 50 years, and has not lifted a finger to do. At least the death cult on the right delivers the red meat to their base, whereas the Democratic Party will issue fundraiser emails with dramatic messages about abortion, and then do absolute nothing to follow up.
The Democratic Party and American liberals are some of the most impotent losers I've ever seen, as someone who follows politics in the international press.
Perhaps you do not understand how our government works. Ho;ding a position is a different thing than being able to do implement those goals. And at one time the Supreme Court was the final arbitrator of law and interpretation of the Constitution. Once Roe v. Wade was decided that should have been the end of it, but Republicans have been scheming at state levels to place restrictions at state levels. Nothing that Dems in other states can do about it and in the states where these laws are passed the Dems are in the minority. While Congress can pass certain laws that states have to comply, there is a limitation to that power. And, as noted, the filibuster and other provisions to prevent "tyranny of the majority" that are foundational to our government have led to a tyranny of the minority over the majority. Also there has been a concerted effort by the Republicans for decades to take over the courts, by hook or by crook (see the rejection of Merrick Garland and all of the rejections of lower court nominations). Consider also the huge reich-wing disinformation machines that have been flooding the electorate, aided by foreign actors the likes of Putin via social media as more and more people, especially the young, get their news there. The Dems are far from perfect, but to whine that it is their fault without acknowledging these factors shows a level of naïveté to political realities in this country. Attachments:
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Post by Albert on May 6, 2022 1:01:58 GMT
As compared to the Democratic Party, which has been promising its faithful that it would defend abortion for 50 years, and has not lifted a finger to do. At least the death cult on the right delivers the red meat to their base, whereas the Democratic Party will issue fundraiser emails with dramatic messages about abortion, and then do absolute nothing to follow up.
The Democratic Party and American liberals are some of the most impotent losers I've ever seen, as someone who follows politics in the international press.
Perhaps you do not understand how our government works. Ho;ding a position is a different thing than being able to do implement those goals. And at one time the Supreme Court was the final arbitrator of law and interpretation of the Constitution. Once Roe v. Wade was decided that should have been the end of it, but Republicans have been scheming at state levels to place restrictions at state levels. Nothing that Dems in other states can do about it and in the states where these laws are passed the Dems are in the minority. While Congress can pass certain laws that states have to comply, there is a limitation to that power. And, as noted, the filibuster and other provisions to prevent "tyranny of the majority" that are foundational to our government have led to a tyranny of the minority over the majority. Also there has been a concerted effort by the Republicans for decades to take over the courts, by hook or by crook (see the rejection of Merrick Garland and all of the rejections of lower court nominations). Consider also the huge reich-wing disinformation machines that have been flooding the electorate, aided by foreign actors the likes of Putin via social media as more and more people, especially the young, get their news there. The Dems are far from perfect, but to whine that it is their fault without acknowledging these factors shows a level of naïveté to political realities in this country. It seems like *you* - along with the rest of American liberals and the Democratic Party - don't understand how government and power actually works. The Right and Republicans certainly do, which is why they're on the cusp of a 50-year old victory which has overturned your precious so-called 'settled law'.
Nothing the Supreme Court has ever passed is 'settled law'. To pretend that it is, is incredibly naive liberal idealism. Anyone who knows anything about the history of the court, of common law systems in general would be able to tell you that within seconds. The knuckledraggers on the right seem to understand history, power, government, and the power of organizing to achieve long-term goals better than supposedly high-minded educated liberals such as yourself. Oh the ironies of American politics.
The fact that you're still beating the Hillary drum in the year 2022 is another tell tale sign. The Right knows how to ditch losers like Romney and Bush. You're still fixating over one of the greatest losers and narcissists in American politics. She was a pathetic loser who should have never ran in 2016. Her loss is hers alone. Posting memes about
The filibuster can be overturned (as it already has been for various things, such as judges). So that excuse won't fly either.
The ACA is yet another example of Obama's spinelessness. He ran on the public option, and then immediately abandoned it. Joe Lieberman campaigned for McCain, and yet he was allowed by Obama specifically to keep his committee positions, which he used to - wait for it - kill the public option. Obama abandoned the public option, allegedly, because he didn't have 60 votes, instead opting for Obamacare which was supposed to be sufficiently right wing as to gather 'bipartisan support', and then he ended up getting it passed with only reconciliation, and not a single GOP vote. Well, if he was going to be able to get it passed through reconciliation, then he might as well have gotten the public option passed through reconciliation.
Just cowardice, ineptitude, and sillyness all around.
@ goldenvalley
There are a lot of reasons no action to protect abortion legislatively ever happened. Roe was a 7-2 decision; that makes it look strong as a precedent. Abortion opposition was seen as a tool to keep certain groups donating to and voting for Republicans. The Reps wouldn't kill the golden goose would they? [/quote][/div]
One of the first things anyone learns in their law 101 class in common law countries is that precedent is *never* binding on the Supreme Court. They have the right to discard it as they see fit - and have done so routinely throughout history. So crying that the Republicans are 'breaking the rules' is pointless as well.
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Post by LFC on May 6, 2022 1:04:54 GMT
Also there has been a concerted effort by the Republicans for decades to take over the courts, by hook or by crook (see the rejection of Merrick Garland and all of the rejections of lower court nominations).
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Post by LFC on May 6, 2022 1:08:06 GMT
One of the first things anyone learns in their law 101 class in common law countries is that precedent is *never* binding on the Supreme Court. They have the right to discard it as they see fit - and have done so routinely throughout history. So crying that the Republicans are 'breaking the rules' is pointless as well.
Bringing this back to the charge that Democrats didn't do anything, what exactly would they have done that would not have been undone, either by the court as unconstitutional or by the Republicans who, you freely admit, can do whatever they wish with 50 votes? |
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Post by Albert on May 6, 2022 1:19:12 GMT
One of the first things anyone learns in their law 101 class in common law countries is that precedent is *never* binding on the Supreme Court. They have the right to discard it as they see fit - and have done so routinely throughout history. So crying that the Republicans are 'breaking the rules' is pointless as well.
Bringing this back to the charge that Democrats didn't do anything, what exactly would they have done that would not have been undone, either by the court as unconstitutional or by the Republicans who, you freely admit, can do whatever they wish with 50 votes? They could have attempted to pass a federal law that guarantees abortion. They've only had literally half a century to do this task. They could have stacked the court. They could have, I don't know, not ran such atrocious election campaigns that they're down to 50 votes in the senate. They could have not just let utter reactionaries such as Joe Manchin take over the entire state democratic party, even after he sabotaged a previous democratic candidate who beat him in a primary.
Source: Manchin's takeover of the state Democratic Party.
You know, the basic fucking things that actual political parties in countries everywhere do: enforcing basic political party discipline. Instead of doing this song and dance about how 'We're so powerless, we only have 50 votes, and those crazy loose canons Sinema and Manchin can do whatever they want!'
Who was it that gave Sinema their personal blessing to run for senate a few years ago? Oh right, one Charles Schummer. One of the supposed sage elder leaders of the party! Did he not even do basic vetting before just handing a senate seat over to someone? That's how pathetic the Democratic Party is. They LARP as 'pragmatic moderates who know how to get things done', but in reality, they can't even perform the basic functions of politics that political parties in every other country perform: vetting candidates and enforcing party discipline.
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jackd
Assistant Professor
Posts: 813
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Post by jackd on May 6, 2022 1:38:02 GMT
You might consider blaming the voters. They seem to have been involved.
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Post by Albert on May 6, 2022 2:23:21 GMT
You might consider blaming the voters. They seem to have been involved.
Or you could blame a political party for its own failures. How strange that even after the Democratic Party's ineptitude has resulted in right wing takeover and failure, people such as yourself can only manage to blame the voters, and not the decrepit octogenarians who have blindly presided over failure after failure.
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Post by indy on May 6, 2022 11:59:45 GMT
The left and the right have had their successes AND their failures because the parties aren't what dictate change. They like to think they do and many act as if they do but they don't. Society changes and then the parties trail along, tucking in the corners of the bed sheets here and there when they can. Can anyone really dispute that gay marriage was a bottom up change? Even the Democrats had to 'evolve'. The right failed to scuttle Obamacare. Social security and medicare still stand.
I would generally agree that the right understands and utilizes their access to power much more brutally in the United States. That was true when they were Democrats in the 1860s and it's true now that they are Republicans. They know how to appeal to the worst in people. Good for them, I guess? But personally, I'm not sure I'd consider it a positive development if Democrats ever managed to get their act together long enough to follow suit.
The right managed a PARTIAL success on abortion but they are still swimming upstream according to all the data. People here are fairly ambivalent about abortion but poll after poll shows a vast majority have at least some support for it. It'll still be quite legal in more than half the states. Remember too, that state laws banning abortions will still have to be blessed by state supreme courts. Some will, of course, but some won't. And frankly, I think the zeal for prosecution will wane quite quickly in the states that do eventually outlaw it.
From the long view, it's just another ripple in the system that is rife with them. It's not nothing but it's not quite Plessy v. Ferguson either. Note I'm not trying to minimize the impact of this decision because I'm well aware it will affect a lot of lives for the worse. That's true of many SCOTUS decisions. How many more people died needlessly because of District of Columbia v. Heller and how much political corruption was enabled by Citizen's United?
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Post by LFC on May 6, 2022 13:43:15 GMT
They could have attempted to pass a federal law that guarantees abortion.
You mean federal law that might now be ruled as unconstitutional?
They could have stacked the court.
THAT I agree with. After the 90s they should have played as dirty as Republicans.
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jackd
Assistant Professor
Posts: 813
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Post by jackd on May 6, 2022 14:48:45 GMT
The guest seems to believe that voters are helpless victims. Closet authoritarian? When one appeals to racists and religious fsnatics, that's reprehensible but those people are who they are.
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