|
|
Post by Albert on May 7, 2022 0:11:37 GMT
The guest seems to believe that voters are helpless victims. Closet authoritarian? When one appeals to racists and religious fsnatics, that's reprehensible but those people are who they are.
You seem to believe that the Democratic Party has no agency, no responsibility, no power, no nothing. They're just hapless victims of an electorate who can't appreciate their genius!
If only the electorate had appreciated Joe 'I know how to work with Republicans' Biden more or something, all of this wouldn't be happened.
Speaking of 'closet authoritarians', your post is oddly reminiscent of Hitler opining in 1945 that Germany had failed him, and not the other way around. American liberals really are out to lunch it seems, if your statement is anything to go by.
The Democratic Party is never wrong, it's the voters who are wrong!
|
|
|
|
Post by goldenvalley on May 7, 2022 0:22:51 GMT
We've heard this before. If only the Dems would stand up and flex muscles the opposition would fall down like a house of cards.
|
|
jackd
Assistant Professor
Posts: 813
|
Post by jackd on May 7, 2022 0:47:06 GMT
He seems to ignore the possibility that both can have responsibility.
|
|
|
|
Post by Albert on May 7, 2022 1:08:34 GMT
We've heard this before. If only the Dems would stand up and flex muscles the opposition would fall down like a house of cards. Nah, you're right. Capitulating on the onset is clearly the winning strategy! Such absurd defeatism. |
|
|
|
Post by goldenvalley on May 7, 2022 15:24:18 GMT
We've heard this before. If only the Dems would stand up and flex muscles the opposition would fall down like a house of cards. Nah, you're right. Capitulating on the onset is clearly the winning strategy! Such absurd defeatism. People learned from the Clinton health care reform. If you swing and miss, the issue will be dead for years so you'd best not miss. |
|
|
|
Post by goldenvalley on May 7, 2022 16:19:00 GMT
And to return conversation to abortion rights...until male legislators and voters show any support for abortion rights there will be no positive movement. As with parental leave and now child tax credit, abortion is treated as a women's issue that only liberal female legislators talk about.
|
|
|
|
Post by Albert on May 8, 2022 15:06:20 GMT
And to return conversation to abortion rights...until male legislators and voters show any support for abortion rights there will be no positive movement. As with parental leave and now child tax credit, abortion is treated as a women's issue that only liberal female legislators talk about.
This is again another talking point that is used a lot but has no relation to reality. Abortion is one of the few issues that has no significant gender gap. Approximately 50% of men support abortion in some or more situations, and 50% of men oppose it in some or more circumstances. Approximately 50% of women support abortion in some or more situations, and 50% of women oppose it in some or more circumstances.
Liberals have spent all this time talking about how this is a women's issue and men just need to get on board, without realizing that half of women of are not with them either. Par for the course.
|
|
|
|
Post by goldenvalley on May 8, 2022 15:57:09 GMT
And to return conversation to abortion rights...until male legislators and voters show any support for abortion rights there will be no positive movement. As with parental leave and now child tax credit, abortion is treated as a women's issue that only liberal female legislators talk about.
This is again another talking point that is used a lot but has no relation to reality. Abortion is one of the few issues that has no significant gender gap. Approximately 50% of men support abortion in some or more situations, and 50% of men oppose it in some or more circumstances. Approximately 50% of women support abortion in some or more situations, and 50% of women oppose it in some or more circumstances.
Liberals have spent all this time talking about how this is a women's issue and men just need to get on board, without realizing that half of women of are not with them either. Par for the course.
The first chart in your citation has a line for women "legal under any circumstances" at 36% in 2021 and one for "legal under certain circumstances" at 45%. That adds to 81% thinking abortion should be legal in some form. Male respondents are categorized in the same ways and the total is 79% approving abortion in some form. Regardless of the polls I don't see male legislators ever talking about abortion unless they are seeking its abolition or reduction. The supportive ones don't do much of anything. They'd apparently rather not talk about it. |
|
|
|
Post by Albert on May 9, 2022 0:03:39 GMT
This is again another talking point that is used a lot but has no relation to reality. Abortion is one of the few issues that has no significant gender gap. Approximately 50% of men support abortion in some or more situations, and 50% of men oppose it in some or more circumstances. Approximately 50% of women support abortion in some or more situations, and 50% of women oppose it in some or more circumstances.
Liberals have spent all this time talking about how this is a women's issue and men just need to get on board, without realizing that half of women of are not with them either. Par for the course.
The first chart in your citation has a line for women "legal under any circumstances" at 36% in 2021 and one for "legal under certain circumstances" at 45%. That adds to 81% thinking abortion should be legal in some form. Male respondents are categorized in the same ways and the total is 79% approving abortion in some form. Regardless of the polls I don't see male legislators ever talking about abortion unless they are seeking its abolition or reduction. The supportive ones don't do much of anything. They'd apparently rather not talk about it.
What the poll shows that is that people's views on the matter are complicated and mixed (for both men and women). Which is why political leadership is absolutely essential in ensuring that women who need/want abortions have access to them, independent of the whims and vagaries of public opinion. The Democrats, who feign to be the party of choice, have had 50 years to do something on this issue, but instead they've sat like lame ducks while the Right seized the carpet from right under them. And here we see in this very thread people blaming the public, and not the feckless and impotent Democratic leadership for this failure. Amazing.
Even the Financial Times, the centrist outlet of all centrist outlets unequivocally blamed the Democrats for squandering 50 years. I repeat, FIFTY YEARS.
If this party can't do anything in 50 years, it should just self-abolish itself. It's utterly pathetic.
|
|
|
|
Post by goldenvalley on May 9, 2022 5:21:08 GMT
And the alternative is what?
|
|
|
|
Post by Albert on May 9, 2022 13:53:19 GMT
And the alternative is what?
In the 1973 Roe v Wade was decided by a 7-2 margin against the Right. Not a 5-4 as this decision is expected to be, but a decisive 7-2 margin. At the time, the Right did not control the senate or the house, and had not done so for years, and would not do so for years. They were only a year or two away from the bombshell fallout of Watergate. Many establishment Republicans, and even some loony religious figures at the time were okay with Roe, and said as much. Nevertheless, they went straight to work and struggled for several decades to reverse what was to them a massive loss, against insurmountable odds.
Meanwhile liberals rescued defeat from the jaws of victory, did absolutely nothing as the ground shifted from under them, and now proclaim in 2022, 'What can we be possibly do? All is lost! We are completely powerless! There is no alternative!'
A tale of two parties.
|
|
jackd
Assistant Professor
Posts: 813
|
Post by jackd on May 9, 2022 14:48:50 GMT
What did you want them to do? During those 50 years, abortion was a constitutional right under Supreme Court holdings.
|
|
|
|
Post by LFC on May 9, 2022 16:56:39 GMT
What did you want them to do? During those 50 years, abortion was a constitutional right under Supreme Court holdings. Pass a law because we know for a fact that:
a) Republicans would never override it, especially if they ignored the parliamentarian, and...
b) Partisan hack SCOTUS would never have found it unconstitutional.
[/snark]
|
|
|
|
Post by LFC on May 9, 2022 16:58:04 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by LFC on May 9, 2022 17:02:05 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by LFC on May 9, 2022 17:46:49 GMT
|
|
pnwguy
Associate Professor
Posts: 1,447
|
Post by pnwguy on May 9, 2022 20:26:17 GMT
Next step - Mississippi passes legislation to require negative pregnancy tests before crossing state lines.
Alabama criminalizes alcohol sales to women unless they can show medical proof of menopause, under the Advanced Pre-born Human Protection Act.
Florida passes legislation that requires monthly pregnancy tests for all women over the age of 12, at schools, churches, and government buildings. Registered pregnancies will be monitored, and miscarriages must be investigated by the new state Womb Regulatory Agency.
Not to be outdone, Texas bans the sale of self-administered pregnancy tests. Mandatory reporting of all pregnancy testing must be sent to a new state Department of Divine Blessings.
Louisiana then bans all forms of birth control and institutes marriage requirements for all women who are found pregnant. Fathers of minor females are issued a shotgun at state expense, once their daughters reach puberty.
Welcome to Gilead, brought to you by the Freedom Fighters at the GOP.
|
|
AnBr
Associate Professor
Posts: 1,819
|
Post by AnBr on May 9, 2022 22:12:52 GMT
Thinking that legislation would have been a magic bullet is laughably naïve. That is only good until the majority is lost. No one party can hold majority indefinitely, especially a super majority, even if both parties are acting above board. Precedent had been considered essentially the final word in the Supreme Court. The fact that a partisan, unethical Court has reversed it is a new ball game. All of this trying to blame the Dems for everything that the Repugs do is very much like the ultra libs refusing to vote for Hillary "because..." opened the door for tRump. They are as much to blame as the deplorables and third party voters. And I say this as an independent that has been forced to vote straight ticket for the Dems because it is the only chance against an insane, unethical Republican party. |
|
|
|
Post by Albert on May 9, 2022 23:30:13 GMT
Nothing is a 'silver bullet', and I never said as much. But doing something is better than impotent and inertia. The Right understands this, while you and others clearly do not. You have a completely defeatist attitude. 'We didn't even try anything, because it probably would have failed. The end.' Meanwhile the Right fires a thousand different arrows from their quiver, watches 95% of them fail to hit the mark, and then succeeds with the other 5%. Political reality is shaped by political action. Inaction and defeatism, gets you defeat. Shocker. Meanwhile relentless coordination and assault gets you victory.
The Right consistently struggles to make mainstream fringe positions and imposes them on the country.
Liberals such as yourself wallow in impotent and defeatism.
How many times did the Right try to repeal Obamacare? How many times did they fail? They'll probably succeed in that goal too, because unlike you and several other people in this thread, Rightists understand the concept of political struggle, whereas you only know how to throw in the towel before the battle has even begun!
'We did nothing, because everything we could have possibly done would have failed anyways!'
A winning political stratagem surely.
|
|
|
|
Post by Albert on May 9, 2022 23:35:05 GMT
Thinking that legislation would have been a magic bullet is laughably naïve. That is only good until the majority is lost. No one party can hold majority indefinitely, especially a super majority, even if both parties are acting above board. Precedent had been considered essentially the final word in the Supreme Court. The fact that a partisan, unethical Court has reversed it is a new ball game. All of this trying to blame the Dems for everything that the Repugs do is very much like the ultra libs refusing to vote for Hillary "because..." opened the door for tRump. They are as much to blame as the deplorables and third party voters. And I say this as an independent that has been forced to vote straight ticket for the Dems because it is the only chance against an insane, unethical Republican party.
If Trump was such a dangerous threat to the Republic, maybe the Democrats could have ran a half-decent candidate instead of the 2nd most unpopular candidate in polling history, one whose own senior staff - Cheryl Mills - was advising against running. Oh right, we're still doing the whole 'Everyone but Hillary Clinton is to blame for Hillary Clinton losing.' thing
And I reiterate, I don't believe in silver bullets. But you folks seem to think Supreme Court rulings are some kind of unalterable eternal magical bullet that 'settle issues' forever, and therefore no further political struggle is required.
|
|
jackd
Assistant Professor
Posts: 813
|
Post by jackd on May 10, 2022 0:35:28 GMT
Should we pass a bill that outlaws slavery just because you can't trust the 13th Amendment?
|
|
|
|
Post by Albert on May 10, 2022 2:45:13 GMT
Should we pass a bill that outlaws slavery just because you can't trust the 13th Amendment? Talk about spouting a completely inane argument. Has there been an organized and virulent movement working to overturn the 13th Amendment or to reinstate slavery for the last 150 years running to the present day, as there has been one to overturn Roe since the very moment it was passed? Has slavery been a contested issue, and a hot button issue for one of the two major political parties for the last 50 years? Let me help you out here, and spoil the answer for you: No.
The movement to criminalize abortion had been gathering steam and victories for better part of 30 years and was multi pronged with everything from the Federalist Society stacking the courts, to individual states testing the limits of abortion bans/Roe, to red states passing all sorts of absurd and cynical laws to whittle down the number of available abortion clinics in their state (sometimes down to little as one per state), to block contraception funding. The Right has behaved as if this was a total war from day, executed a relentless and flawless strategy over multiple decades, and finally at last secured their victory. And they intend to push even further.
Meanwhile you sit there reaching deep down inside to come up with ever more tedious excuses for why there was never any other alternative to Democratic impotence and defeatism, and how even the notion they should have tried something is somehow some pie in the sky demand.
Truly amazing. American liberalism is truly the most debased and useless ideology in the modern West. An ideology of pure surrender.
|
|
AnBr
Associate Professor
Posts: 1,819
|
Post by AnBr on May 10, 2022 10:59:55 GMT
DSP?
|
|
jackd
Assistant Professor
Posts: 813
|
Post by jackd on May 10, 2022 14:25:36 GMT
"Don't just stand there; do something!"
ETA: I should have added that because of the filibuster, nothing will pass and, at best, you'll get Senators on the record for their position for whatever that's worth. The failure to pass it then leads to stupid, but effective, complaints that "The Democrats don't get anything done.".
|
|
|
|
Post by indy on May 11, 2022 11:12:16 GMT
Could be my wife who voices a lot of the same complaints. There is some truth to them but as far as I can determine, Democrat bashing is the only sport enjoyed across the political spectrum, especially as an election approaches. Some days it can be hard to distinguish Daily Kos from Red State. |
|
