Immorality in American Christianity

[LFC]

I'm starting this because it's not really political (though it may brush politics) because the immoral behavior by "Christians", especially their leaders, outside of fascist politics is the primary factor in driving younger people away from organized religion.

First up we have a pastor caught with his pants down. Literally.

When volunteers at Venue Church in Chattanooga, Tennessee, arrived at their pastor’s house last November, they were hoping to raise his spirits with a surprise visit. Instead they got a shock: Pastor Tavner Smith was alone with a female church employee—she in a towel, he in his boxers.

The charismatic 41-year-old hurriedly explained that the two of them had been making chili and hot dogs and gotten food on their clothes, according to one volunteer who was present. But, as the volunteer put it, “I don’t think none of us was that dumb.”

“If she dropped chili on her clothes, why are you in your boxers?” she recalled thinking. “Was y’all like, throwing chili at each other?”

For the volunteer, the scene confirmed something she had long suspected—that Smith, then married with three children, was secretly carrying on an affair with the employee, who was married to another church staffer. Smith has denied any affair took place, but rumors about it have nonetheless led to something out of a daytime soap opera, involving two divorces, one secretly recorded video, and the departure of nearly all the church’s full-time staff.

And former staffers, members, and volunteers told The Daily Beast they are still struggling to come to terms with the maelstrom that left one of the country’s fastest-growing mega churches in shambles.

“Everyone used to say, ‘Venue is a cult, Venue is a cult,’ and I was like, ‘No, it’s not,’” the volunteer who witnessed the chili incident told The Daily Beast. “And now as I look back I’m like, ‘I don’t think I was in a Godly place.’”

Read on about how Venue Church was a perfectly standard prosperity gospel megachurch run by an egomaniac. At this point it's almost like they're a cookie cutter scam.

[goldenvalley]

Charismatic people attract people like moths to a flame.  Some are very successful at sales or religion (which is like sales only supercharged).  It's no surprise that a guy that can attract thousands to his business/church will attract individuals who are willing or eager to have sex with him.  And who is he to say they shouldn't? It's part of the high for both the charismatic person and the followers.

[Bact PhD]

Jan 24, 2022 16:27:25 GMT LFC said:

I'm starting this because it's not really political (though it may brush politics) because the immoral behavior by "Christians", especially their leaders, outside of fascist politics is the primary factor in driving younger people away from organized religion.

First up we have a pastor caught with his pants down. Literally.

When volunteers at Venue Church in Chattanooga, Tennessee, arrived at their pastor’s house last November, they were hoping to raise his spirits with a surprise visit. Instead they got a shock: Pastor Tavner Smith was alone with a female church employee—she in a towel, he in his boxers.

The charismatic 41-year-old hurriedly explained that the two of them had been making chili and hot dogs and gotten food on their clothes, according to one volunteer who was present. But, as the volunteer put it, “I don’t think none of us was that dumb.”

“If she dropped chili on her clothes, why are you in your boxers?” she recalled thinking. “Was y’all like, throwing chili at each other?”

For the volunteer, the scene confirmed something she had long suspected—that Smith, then married with three children, was secretly carrying on an affair with the employee, who was married to another church staffer. Smith has denied any affair took place, but rumors about it have nonetheless led to something out of a daytime soap opera, involving two divorces, one secretly recorded video, and the departure of nearly all the church’s full-time staff.

And former staffers, members, and volunteers told The Daily Beast they are still struggling to come to terms with the maelstrom that left one of the country’s fastest-growing mega churches in shambles.

“Everyone used to say, ‘Venue is a cult, Venue is a cult,’ and I was like, ‘No, it’s not,’” the volunteer who witnessed the chili incident told The Daily Beast. “And now as I look back I’m like, ‘I don’t think I was in a Godly place.’”

Read on about how Venue Church was a perfectly standard prosperity gospel megachurch run by an egomaniac. At this point it's almost like they're a cookie cutter scam.

Jim Bakker 2.0?

In all seriousness, it’s not a new phenomenon. To paraphrase GV, there’s something about the charismatic leader and his/her relationship with the followers that has a way of leading to this sort of thing.

These independent churches have sprung up like mushrooms in the last 40 years or so, especially (but not strictly) in the Bible Belt. One of the hallmarks of these churches is their total unmooring from any denominational hierarchy or strictures (the doctrines adhered to are overwhelmingly of the Evangelical/Fundamentalist variety, with perhaps some pop psychology mixed in). Even the relatively loose confederation of affiliated churches that is the Southern Baptist Convention is too much. Unfortunately, that lack of structural guardrails makes these bodies more likely to veer into cult/extremist territory.

[andydp]

Jim Bakker 2.0

Going back to his downfall, someone noted he was brought down by a woman from Babylon (NY).

[goldenvalley]

Jan 24, 2022 19:12:53 GMT andydp said:

Jim Bakker 2.0

Going back to his downfall, someone noted he was brought down by a woman from Babylon (NY).

What a fun fact!   

In this day and age an extramarital affair may not yield a downfall.  No one cared with Trump.  Maybe those who claim to operate in the religious realm are more vulnerable but I doubt it.

[goldenvalley]

Jan 24, 2022 18:33:51 GMT Bact PhD said:

Jan 24, 2022 16:27:25 GMT LFC said:

I'm starting this because it's not really political (though it may brush politics) because the immoral behavior by "Christians", especially their leaders, outside of fascist politics is the primary factor in driving younger people away from organized religion. 

First up we have a pastor caught with his pants down. Literally.

Read on about how Venue Church was a perfectly standard prosperity gospel megachurch run by an egomaniac. At this point it's almost like they're a cookie cutter scam.

Jim Bakker 2.0?

In all seriousness, it’s not a new phenomenon. To paraphrase GV, there’s something about the charismatic leader and his/her relationship with the followers that has a way of leading to this sort of thing.

These independent churches have sprung up like mushrooms in the last 40 years or so, especially (but not strictly) in the Bible Belt. One of the hallmarks of these churches is their total unmooring from any denominational hierarchy or strictures (the doctrines adhered to are overwhelmingly of the Evangelical/Fundamentalist variety, with perhaps some pop psychology mixed in). Even the relatively loose confederation of affiliated churches that is the Southern Baptist Convention is too much. Unfortunately, that lack of structural guardrails makes these bodies more likely to veer into cult/extremist territory.

The West Coast has plenty of the megachurch thing going on.  They are perhaps more Prosperity Gospel types but they certainly exist.  Plenty of Pentecostal types too but those tend to be smaller groups.  

[andydp]

Jan 24, 2022 17:28:15 GMT goldenvalley said:

Charismatic people attract people like moths to a flame.  Some are very successful at sales or religion (which is like sales only supercharged).  It's no surprise that a guy that can attract thousands to his business/church will attract individuals who are willing or eager to have sex with him.  And who is he to say they shouldn't? It's part of the high for both the charismatic person and the followers.

When looking at photos of Pres Trump's adoring lady fans, I can't help but note the similarities with Hitler's adoring female fans.  The faces seem to imply they are seconds away from the rapture.   Extramarital affairs, even involving a $130K payment, didn't seem to phase that group.

I know its very easy for charismatic leaders to attract followers, either in religious or business situations.  Since we're all human, we do human things.  Not all of them involve purely religious activity.  Some chili cooking may be going on.  

PS:  I think Chili Cooking Reverend would be a great name for a Country Christian Band with some Satanic overtones.

[LFC]

Jan 24, 2022 19:50:54 GMT goldenvalley said:

In this day and age an extramarital affair may not yield a downfall.  No one cared with Trump.  Maybe those who claim to operate in the religious realm are more vulnerable but I doubt it.

I remember posting something up on the old TRS about how when a charismatic church leaders "falls from grace" (i.e. acts like a lying, sinning scumbag) there's a strong tendency by the "flock" (semi-mindless sheep) to forgive them as long as they cry, pray, beat their breasts, and present whatever other performance art makes the rubes feel good. On the flip side if a member of the church (especially a female member) who isn't key to running the place commits a much lesser sin they're more than happy to ride them out on a metaphorical rail.

[Bact PhD]

Jan 24, 2022 19:50:54 GMT goldenvalley said:

Jan 24, 2022 19:12:53 GMT andydp said:

Jim Bakker 2.0

Going back to his downfall, someone noted he was brought down by a woman from Babylon (NY).

What a fun fact!   

In this day and age an extramarital affair may not yield a downfall.  No one cared with Trump.  Maybe those who claim to operate in the religious realm are more vulnerable but I doubt it.

Jan 24, 2022 20:32:50 GMT LFC said:

I remember posting something up on the old TRS about how when a charismatic church leaders "falls from grace" (i.e. acts like a lying, sinning scumbag) there's a strong tendency by the "flock" (semi-mindless sheep) to forgive them as long as they cry, pray, beat their breasts, and present whatever other performance art makes the rubes feel good. On the flip side if a member of the church (especially a female member) who isn't key to running the place commits a much lesser sin they're more than happy to ride them out on a metaphorical rail.

Hmmm. WRT GV's assertion, Jerry Falwell, Jr.'s dismissal from Liberty U. post-pool boy would argue against that. However, a la Bakker, there's always room for...THE COMEBACK! LFC's remark reminded me about Swaggart's utterly over-the-top performance way back when. Ugggh.

[goldenvalley]

Jan 25, 2022 0:37:26 GMT Bact PhD said:

Jan 24, 2022 19:50:54 GMT goldenvalley said:

What a fun fact!   

In this day and age an extramarital affair may not yield a downfall.  No one cared with Trump.  Maybe those who claim to operate in the religious realm are more vulnerable but I doubt it.

Jan 24, 2022 20:32:50 GMT LFC said:

I remember posting something up on the old TRS about how when a charismatic church leaders "falls from grace" (i.e. acts like a lying, sinning scumbag) there's a strong tendency by the "flock" (semi-mindless sheep) to forgive them as long as they cry, pray, beat their breasts, and present whatever other performance art makes the rubes feel good. On the flip side if a member of the church (especially a female member) who isn't key to running the place commits a much lesser sin they're more than happy to ride them out on a metaphorical rail.

Hmmm. WRT GV's assertion, Jerry Falwell, Jr.'s dismissal from Liberty U. post-pool boy would argue against that. However, a la Bakker, there's always room for...THE COMEBACK! LFC's remark reminded me about Swaggart's utterly over-the-top performance way back when. Ugggh.

Ah yeah Falwell, Jr!  But he wasn't a pastor himself, never claimed to be.  Plus his sexual misbehavior was kind of a kink that made him look like a less manly, watching his wife have sex with other men. Liberty U. was not so reliant on the Falwell name. We never hear about the school anymore. Has it lost students and financial supporters?

[AnBr]

[AnBr]

[goldenvalley]

It's too bad that institutions that people trust as being part of a higher moral calling end up being institutions that are more concerned with preserving the institution than with the welfare of the people that believe in it. Looks like it is the Southern Baptist Convention's time to be in the sexual abuse spotlight.

The findings of nearly 300 pages include shocking new details about specific abuse cases and shine a light on how denominational leaders for decades actively resisted calls for abuse prevention and reform. Evidence in the report suggests leaders also lied to Southern Baptists over whether they could maintain a database of offenders to prevent more abuse when top leaders were secretly keeping a private list for years.

Hiding the problem becomes paramount:

For decades, the findings show, Southern Baptists were told the denomination could not put together a registry of sex offenders because it would go against the denomination’s polity — or how it functions. What the report reveals is that leaders maintained a list of offenders while keeping it a secret to avoid the possibility of getting sued. The report also includes private emails showing how longtime leaders such as August Boto were dismissive about sexual abuse concerns, calling them “a satanic scheme to completely distract us from evangelism.”

[LFC]

[AnBr]

May 24, 2022 16:39:34 GMT LFC said:

"Your winnings, sir."
"Oh thank you."

[andydp]

Here's another pillar of "Christendom"

A pastor confesses to 'adultery,' a woman in the audience says 'I was just 16'


WARSAW, Ind. (AP) — An Indiana pastor resigned after a woman stood at a Sunday service and said he had a sexual relationship with her years ago that began when she was a teenager, the church said Tuesday.

The woman's extraordinary remarks came just moments after Pastor John Lowe II told the congregation at New Life Christian Church and World Outreach that he had “committed adultery” and wanted their forgiveness.

Church members in Warsaw, Indiana, stood and applauded, according to a video posted on Facebook, but then the woman stepped forward and took the microphone.

(But wait !! There's more !!)

“It was 27 years ago, not 20. ... I was just 16 when you took my virginity on your office floor. Do you remember that? I know you do,” she said.

www.chron.com/culture/article/pastor-adultery-confess-woman-sixtee-17195384.php

[LFC]

May 25, 2022 0:51:58 GMT andydp said:

Here's another pillar of "Christendom"

Adultery is the real crime, not rape of a child. That little harlot shouldn't have been tempting this man of God(tm).

[AnBr]

America's belief in God hits new low

The number of Americans who believe in God has dropped to the lowest level in the 78 years Gallup has asked the question, per a poll out Friday.

Driving the news: 81% of U.S. adults say they believe in God — down 6 points from 2017.

• Belief in God dropped the most among young adults, liberals and Democrats, with these groups showing a drop of 10 or more percentage points compared to an average of polls from 2013 to 2017, Gallup found.

More than 90% of Americans believed in God between 1944 and 2011.

[goldenvalley]

Jun 18, 2022 13:52:50 GMT AnBr said:

America's belief in God hits new low

The number of Americans who believe in God has dropped to the lowest level in the 78 years Gallup has asked the question, per a poll out Friday.

Driving the news: 81% of U.S. adults say they believe in God — down 6 points from 2017.

• Belief in God dropped the most among young adults, liberals and Democrats, with these groups showing a drop of 10 or more percentage points compared to an average of polls from 2013 to 2017, Gallup found.

More than 90% of Americans believed in God between 1944 and 2011.

Little wonder when you hear the Texas AG say something about it being God's will that the elementary school kids and their teachers were killed.  That's not the sort of God most people are interested in.

[LFC]

America will be a better place when that number drops below 50%.

[pnwguy]

Jun 22, 2022 12:23:53 GMT LFC said:

America will be a better place when that number drops below 50%.

And why do you think the GOP is actively trying to lock in minority rule, to bring Gilead to the land as soon as possible?

[LFC]

It seems like the list of "Christian" scandals just keeps growing and, once again, the targets were children who have the least power to fight back. These people are sick, twisted, cruel, and sadistic. Who knows if they are lashing out over their own pasts has abused children, if their religion has gutted the basic humanity out of them, and/or they're just psychopaths.

In southwest Missouri, a Baptist compound for troubled teen boys promises redemption on its bucolic 200-acre campus. Behind the facility’s arched gate, children will find a swimming pool, sports fields, and ranch for horses and exotic animals. Agapé Boarding School “is truly a place where miracles happen,” one piano-filled commercial boasts.

“At Agapé, we lovingly, patiently, and biblically teach your child the importance of submission to authority and the joys of being an obedient law-abiding citizen,” a soft-spoken voiceover actor says while images of smiling teenagers flash across the screen. “Mom and Dad, we want to support you in your effort to rescue your son from himself.”

But former students interviewed by The Daily Beast say the school was far from heavenly. Instead, they encountered a climate more like Lord of the Flies, where staff were given free rein to restrain and beat students, and where some kids were emotionally and sexually abused. They claim Agapé has functioned like a “cult” and “Christian torture compound” for decades, allowing adults to manhandle teenagers and withhold food, water, and proper clothing—apparently without most parents ever knowing.

According to these alumni, the school banned children from speaking to each other without adults present, censored their letters home, destroyed photographs showing anything other than happy faces, and admonished kids that if they ran away, locals with guns would hunt them down. As part of a “buddy” system, older students had authority to mete out seemingly arbitrary punishments to new students assigned to them.

Now they’ve joined a chorus of voices—including parents, lawmakers, and even heiress and boarding-school abuse activist Paris Hilton—demanding the state of Missouri shut down Agapé for good. “How much more do you need to see[?] … This needs to end!” Hilton tweeted to Missouri’s attorney general and governor on June 21.

Since last year, 19 former students have filed lawsuits against the school, alleging physical and emotional abuse, and in some cases, sexual abuse by staff and classmates.

Such accusations led to the arrest of the school’s ex-doctor, David Smock, who faces child molestation charges related to two alleged victims. He has pleaded not guilty. At a March hearing, one 16-year-old testified that Smock began abusing him when he was 13 and grooming him when he was 9 or 10, according to The Kansas City Star, which has extensively investigated claims against Agapé.

The AG sounds like he's trying to do as little as he can get away with. It shouldn't shock anybody that he's a Republican who, in his position, pushed to invalidate Missouri's election. This is a "Christian" organization and, of course, they protect their own. Besides the kids who went there were bad and probably deserved it.

Advocates say these charges don’t go far enough, and that more Agapé staff should have been prosecuted. Cedar County Prosecuting Attorney Ty Gaither had requested assistance from Attorney General Eric Schmitt’s office, which recommended 22 staffers face a total of 65 charges. But last fall, Schmitt wrote Governor Mike Parson asking to be taken off the case, saying that Gaither “has indicated that he does not intend to seek justice for all of the 36 children who were allegedly victimized by 22 members of the Agapé Boarding School staff.” (Gaither did not return messages by press time.)

[LFC]

Liberty University lives off the government teat and siphons up tax dollars while intentionally providing less bang for the buck for people taking online classes. That puts them way up in the list of scammy online schools.

The complaint was one of more than a dozen provided in response to a public records request about Liberty that was filed with the Veterans Affairs department’s GI Bill Feedback Tool and shared with ProPublica. In 2018, ProPublica published an investigation of the highly lucrative online operation at Liberty, the evangelical college in Lynchburg, Virginia, founded in 1971 by the Rev. Jerry Falwell. The investigation showed how under the leadership of Falwell’s son, Jerry Falwell Jr., who took over after his father’s death in 2007, Liberty turned its online division into the financial engine of its burgeoning campus and political network, helping drive the university’s net assets from $150 million in 2007 to more than $2.5 billion in 2018.

The article revealed how much Liberty — the second-largest provider of online education after the University of Phoenix — relied on taxpayer funding for tuition revenue: Its students received more than $772 million in total aid from the Department of Education by 2017, plus more than $40 million from the Department of Veterans Affairs. Military veterans are such a big market for Liberty University Online that it has a whole division assigned to them.

And the article described a “steep drop-off in quality from the traditional college to the online courses” that was “openly acknowledged among Liberty faculty.” It showed how the university managed to keep its costs in delivering online courses exceedingly low by relying on low-paid instructors and course designers. This helped explain how Liberty, which is a nonprofit organization, managed to pocket $215 million of net income on nearly $1 billion in revenue in 2016, but it also helped explain why students were filing complaints with Virginia’s higher education oversight agency. It was a couple dozen such complaints, obtained via a public records request, that gave rise to the ProPublica investigation, revealing a much deeper iceberg of concerns about Liberty’s online operation. (In the 2018 article, Falwell Jr. described the university’s financial management as shrewd and defended the quality of its instruction.)

Yeah, "shrewd" might not be the best word to make your case that you're above board.

Yet another veteran offered a more systematic criticism this spring. Liberty, his complaint asserted, was failing GI Bill recipients on three levels: The university fails to certify their GI Bill benefits properly, which often creates a welter of unnecessary debts and offsets; it fails to provide proper academic advising, with the consequence that “veterans can get over their heads and fail classes or not be adequately informed about course loads”; and it fails to provide adequate academic support for the online programs, with communications limited mostly to emails. “They do not answer their phones besides the call centers that cannot provide detailed support no matter what,” he wrote.

Another "Christian" organization making religion pay!

[LFC]

My first reaction was, this creeper is still around? My second was, of course he is!

Former Colorado megachurch pastor Ted Haggard, who fell from grace in 2006 after a gay sex-and-drug scandal, is now facing some of the same allegations at another church.

Haggard, 66, is being accused of using methamphetamine and behaving inappropriately with young men at St. James Church in Colorado Springs, Colorado, a church he founded in 2010, The Denver Gazette reported.

A onetime president of the National Association of Evangelicals, Haggard resigned from New Life Church in Colorado Springs in the wake of a scandal involving a Denver male prostitute. Haggard admitted at the time that he bought methamphetamine and paid the prostitute for massages. Later, it also emerged he’d had an inappropriate relationship with a young man at the megachurch he founded.

Haggard went through a “spiritual restoration” process, and his wife, Gayle, wrote a book about the experience, called “Why I Stayed.” (New Life Church continues under the leadership of Brady Boyd.)

The most recent allegations were made by Kirk “Seth” Sethman, who was ordained as a minister by St. James Church in 2012. Sethman recorded the statements of two young adult men who said Haggard touched them inappropriately on several occasions at the church. One of them was a minor at the time the touching began in 2019.

Sethman said he first approached church elders with allegations about Haggard in 2020.

St. James has declined in membership in recent years and earlier this year sold its building. Haggard is still head pastor but has moved the church’s services and study sessions to his home and is now calling his new congregation the Storyhouse Church.

Haggard was first ordained as a Southern Baptist but is now part of the Free Methodist Church. His new church does not appear to be affiliated with the denomination.

[andydp]

Jul 28, 2022 21:38:24 GMT LFC said:

My first reaction was, this creeper is still around? My second was, of course he is!

Former Colorado megachurch pastor Ted Haggard, who fell from grace in 2006 after a gay sex-and-drug scandal, is now facing some of the same allegations at another church.

I thought he was vetted and declared "100% heterosexual" by a committee of "religious" somethings.