Guns

[LFC]

Dec 1, 2021 18:36:55 GMT goldenvalley said:

Again this search for motive in mass shootings...what's the point?  There are never any steps taken to prevent this sort of thing from happening. And the 2nd A absolutists just say "oh the kid is mentally ill, whadda ya gonna do?"  Teaching kids to duck and cover and teachers to lock classroom doors is as far as prevention measures are ever taken.  

But I thought armed children were polite children.

[jackd]

Justice Scalia must be smiling. . . somewhere.

[LFC]

Dec 1, 2021 19:07:19 GMT jackd said:

Justice Scalia must be smiling. . . somewhere.

Beelzebuddy! Paging Mr. Beelzebuddy!

[goldenvalley]

The Michigan high school shooter is charged not just with murder and assault with intent to murder, but also with terrorism.

“It’s not a usual, a typical charge,” Oakland County Prosecutor Karen McDonald said Wednesday. She explained that alleged gunman Ethan Crumbley would be charged as an adult with four counts of first-degree murder, seven counts of assault with intent to murder and 12 counts of possession of a firearm in the commission of a felony — as well as one count of “terrorism causing death.”

But, she said, the charge was designed to address the harm caused to those who suffered from the violent rampage but who were not killed or injured. “When we sat down and talked about the charges that were applicable in this case, the children [who were killed] and those that were injured — they are the victims in the first-degree murder charges and the assault with intent to murder, but what about all these other children?”

“What about all the children who ran, screaming, hiding under desks?” McDonald said at a news conference. “What about all the children at home right now who can’t eat and can’t sleep and can’t imagine a world where they could ever set foot back in that school? Those are victims, too, and so are their families, and so is the community. And the charge of terrorism reflects that.”

Yeah, she's right.  Those others were also damaged, but our laws are focused on physical damage to the body (or to property).  For those not wounded physically or dead, there is no justice to be had in the criminal justice system.

And perhaps there is a deeper psychological reason for mass shooters' actions:

The sadistic motive of deriving pleasure from terrorizing others can be traced to other school shooters, said psychologist Peter Langman, an expert in school shootings and author of “Warning Signs: Identifying School Shooters Before They Strike.”

Langman, who has run an online database on school shooters for 13 years, pointed to the writings and comments of gunmen, including one of the 1999 Columbine High School murderers, Eric Harris, and Elliot Rodger, who killed six people in Santa Barbara, Calif., in 2014.

“To some extent, we have to read between the lines, because perpetrators typically won’t lay it out explicitly that ‘I’m committing this attack because I want to intimidate others,’ ” Langman said. “I see a connection, though, for this desire for power, to feel like God.”

Makes sense to me.  

[LFC]

More on the Michigan school shooter. He was a troubled kid, as the school apparently tried to tell his parents several times, who clearly had free access to his parent's firearm.

Investigators believe Crumbley was preparing to shoot more students; police found two 15-round clips and believe he may have had a third somewhere.

Crumbley, whose social media accounts were removed by Wednesday morning, was fairly active on YouTube as a young boy. On one account in his father’s name, he posted numerous videos of himself playing games such as Call of Duty, as well as shooting hoops with friends. He is said to have flaunted the newly purchased handgun in since-deleted posts.

[LFC]

It's not just more guns, it more inappropriately accessible guns. Remember that many of these people present themselves as "responsible gun owners" when that is clearly far from the truth. Here's some of the text but the full piece is filled with additional links.

Four days before a 15-year-old sophomore killed four students and wounded others at a high school shooting in Michigan, his father purchased the firearm used in the attack.

That the teenager used a weapon from home during the Nov. 30 attack is not unusual. Most school shooters obtain the firearm from home. And the number of guns within reach of high school-age teenagers has increased during the pandemic – highlighting the importance of locking firearms and keeping them unloaded in the home.

Since the onset of the public health crisis, firearm sales have spiked. Many of these firearms have ended up in households with teenage children, increasing the risk of accidental or intentional injury or fatalities, or death by suicide.

As experts on firearm violence and firearm injury prevention, we know that active shooter events within school settings in the U.S. have increased substantially in the years running up to the pandemic. Meanwhile, our research indicates that in the early months of the public health crisis, more families with teenage children purchased firearms – increasing the potential risk that a teen could gain unsupervised access to a firearm.

While many firearm owners look after their guns responsibly by maintaining them locked, unloaded and inaccessible to teens, access to unsecured firearms remains the single biggest contributor to teen firearm injury and death. Our survey indicated that in the midst of the increased firearm purchasing during COVID, more firearms were being kept unsecured within homes with teenagers.

Some 5% of firearm-owning parents reported making changes to their firearm storage methods since the beginning of the pandemic to make them more accessible. Firearm-owning parents we spoke to reported leaving them in unlocked cabinets or within easier reach – say, in a bedside cabinet – and with the firearm loaded.

Households that already kept firearms unlocked and loaded were also those that were more likely to purchase firearms during the pandemic, we found. Parents said they were largely motivated to make firearms easier to access by fear and a need for greater protection.

Yet this also means that others may also have easy access to the firearms. During the pandemic, many people, especially youths, have experienced stress and isolation – which increases the potential risk of violence against others or oneself. This further emphasizes the importance of securing firearms in a locked safe and storing ammunition separately in the home to prevent unsupervised access during a moment of crisis.

[Bact PhD]

Dec 3, 2021 17:16:23 GMT LFC said:

It's not just more guns, it more inappropriately accessible guns. Remember that many of these people present themselves as "responsible gun owners" when that is clearly far from the truth. Here's some of the text but the full piece is filled with additional links.

Four days before a 15-year-old sophomore killed four students and wounded others at a high school shooting in Michigan, his father purchased the firearm used in the attack.

That the teenager used a weapon from home during the Nov. 30 attack is not unusual. Most school shooters obtain the firearm from home. And the number of guns within reach of high school-age teenagers has increased during the pandemic – highlighting the importance of locking firearms and keeping them unloaded in the home.

Since the onset of the public health crisis, firearm sales have spiked. Many of these firearms have ended up in households with teenage children, increasing the risk of accidental or intentional injury or fatalities, or death by suicide.

As experts on firearm violence and firearm injury prevention, we know that active shooter events within school settings in the U.S. have increased substantially in the years running up to the pandemic. Meanwhile, our research indicates that in the early months of the public health crisis, more families with teenage children purchased firearms – increasing the potential risk that a teen could gain unsupervised access to a firearm.

While many firearm owners look after their guns responsibly by maintaining them locked, unloaded and inaccessible to teens, access to unsecured firearms remains the single biggest contributor to teen firearm injury and death. Our survey indicated that in the midst of the increased firearm purchasing during COVID, more firearms were being kept unsecured within homes with teenagers.

Some 5% of firearm-owning parents reported making changes to their firearm storage methods since the beginning of the pandemic to make them more accessible. Firearm-owning parents we spoke to reported leaving them in unlocked cabinets or within easier reach – say, in a bedside cabinet – and with the firearm loaded.

Households that already kept firearms unlocked and loaded were also those that were more likely to purchase firearms during the pandemic, we found. Parents said they were largely motivated to make firearms easier to access by fear and a need for greater protection.

Yet this also means that others may also have easy access to the firearms. During the pandemic, many people, especially youths, have experienced stress and isolation – which increases the potential risk of violence against others or oneself. This further emphasizes the importance of securing firearms in a locked safe and storing ammunition separately in the home to prevent unsupervised access during a moment of crisis.

And this quoted passage doesn’t even address the number of FOOLS who leave loaded firearms in their vehicles! From my hyper local social media site, there are quite a few of my fellow citizens who do precisely that and think they’re A-OK because (a) the vehicle itself is locked (but sitting outside) or (b) the vehicle is unlocked, but sitting in a garage.

SMH

[Bact PhD]

Dec 3, 2021 17:11:22 GMT LFC said:

More on the Michigan school shooter. He was a troubled kid, as the school apparently tried to tell his parents several times, who clearly had free access to his parent's firearm.

Investigators believe Crumbley was preparing to shoot more students; police found two 15-round clips and believe he may have had a third somewhere.

Crumbley, whose social media accounts were removed by Wednesday morning, was fairly active on YouTube as a young boy. On one account in his father’s name, he posted numerous videos of himself playing games such as Call of Duty, as well as shooting hoops with friends. He is said to have flaunted the newly purchased handgun in since-deleted posts.

I can’t pull a link, but NPR is reporting that Michigan Darling’s parents are being charged with involuntary manslaughter:

Prosecutors have charged Jennifer and James Crumbley, the parents of the 15-year-old accused of murdering four students at a high school in Michigan, with four counts each of involuntary manslaughter.

The 9mm Sig Sauer SP 2022 pistol used in Tuesday's shooting at Oxford High School in Oxford Township, a small community north of Detroit, was purchased by James Crumbley at a local gun shop on Black Friday, authorities said Friday.

A store employee told authorities that Crumbley's son was with him at the time of the purchase, Oakland County prosecutor Karen McDonald said at a press conference Friday, who cited multiple social media posts by Ethan Crumbley and his parents afterward.

"While the shooter was the one who entered the high school and pulled the trigger, there are other individuals who contributed to the events of November 30, and it's my intention to hold them accountable as well," McDonald said.

[goldenvalley]

Dec 3, 2021 17:35:59 GMT Bact PhD said:

Dec 3, 2021 17:11:22 GMT LFC said:

More on the Michigan school shooter. He was a troubled kid, as the school apparently tried to tell his parents several times, who clearly had free access to his parent's firearm.

I can’t pull a link, but NPR is reporting that Michigan Darling’s parents are being charged with involuntary manslaughter:

Prosecutors have charged Jennifer and James Crumbley, the parents of the 15-year-old accused of murdering four students at a high school in Michigan, with four counts each of involuntary manslaughter.

The 9mm Sig Sauer SP 2022 pistol used in Tuesday's shooting at Oxford High School in Oxford Township, a small community north of Detroit, was purchased by James Crumbley at a local gun shop on Black Friday, authorities said Friday.

A store employee told authorities that Crumbley's son was with him at the time of the purchase, Oakland County prosecutor Karen McDonald said at a press conference Friday, who cited multiple social media posts by Ethan Crumbley and his parents afterward.

"While the shooter was the one who entered the high school and pulled the trigger, there are other individuals who contributed to the events of November 30, and it's my intention to hold them accountable as well," McDonald said.

WaPo is also reporting that and has video of the announcement.  From the article:

On the day of the shooting, the Crumbleys had been summoned to the school by administrators concerned about their son after a teacher found a note at Ethan’s desk that was so troubling she took a photo of it, McDonald said. In it was a drawing of a semiautomatic handgun pointing at the words “The thoughts won’t stop. Help me.”

Another section of the note had a drawing of a bullet with the words, “blood everywhere.” There was also a drawing of a bloody figure with two gunshot wounds, and another drawing of a laughing emoji, McDonald said.

By the time the meeting began after 10 a.m. Ethan had already altered the note, scratching out several parts of it, McDonald said. He attended the meeting with his parents in the counselor’s office with his backpack. McDonald noted that at no point did his parents ask him if he had the gun or check his backpack.

The parents “resisted the idea of their son leaving the school at that time,” McDonald said. Ethan later returned to class. Less than three hours later, the first 911 calls were made about shots fired at the school.
When the news of the active shooting became public, McDonald said Jennifer Crumbley texted her son, writing: “Ethan, don’t do it.”

Moments later, James Crumbley drove to the family home to check the location of the gun — which McDonald said had been stored “unlocked in a drawer” in the couple’s bedroom. The elder Crumbley called 911 to report the gun missing and that his son might be the shooter.

  

[LFC]

Dec 3, 2021 19:04:31 GMT goldenvalley said:

WaPo is also reporting that and has video of the announcement.  From the article:

So completely preventable if the parents had a) listened and responded and b) been either responsible gun owners or not been gun owners at all. This story gets more awful by the hour.

[goldenvalley]

Dec 3, 2021 19:27:56 GMT LFC said:

Dec 3, 2021 19:04:31 GMT goldenvalley said:

WaPo is also reporting that and has video of the announcement.  From the article:

So completely preventable if the parents had a) listened and responded and b) been either responsible gun owners or not been gun owners at all. This story gets more awful by the hour.

It does and I now feel sorry for the kid who consciously or unconsciously was making a cry for help only to have it ignored by his parents.

[LFC]

Oh, man. The parents are real pieces of work themselves. No wonder the kid is so messed up.

Online records in Duval County, Florida, show that James and Jennifer Crumbley were charged with driving under the influence on Feb. 12, 2005, pleaded no contest, and were fined $652 each. James was also charged with driving with a suspended license and not having the proper tags on his car.

In 2003, Jennifer was charged with writing a fraudulent check for $150, although the charge was later dismissed. She committed the same offense a year later and was fined $240.

James also faced legal trouble over child support payments he owed to his ex-wife, whom he shares an 18-year-old son.

[Bact PhD]

The Pieces of Work were arrested in Detroit overnight & are being held on $500K bond...each.

The parents of the suspect in a shooting at Oxford High School in Michigan that left four students dead this week are facing involuntary manslaughter charges in those deaths.

Legal experts were quick to point out that such charges are far from the norm — it is James and Jennifer Crumbley's 15-year-old son, Ethan, who is accused of pulling the trigger and killing four of his fellow high school students.

The Crumbleys pleaded not guilty to the charges Saturday during an arraignment.

"It's exceptionally unusual," said Cassandra Crifasi, deputy director of Johns Hopkins Center for Gun Violence and Research. "We rarely hold people accountable for giving someone a gun who shouldn't have one."

But it's the alleged egregiousness of the couple's behavior that appears to have led to the charges.

"These are extraordinary charges," said CNN legal analyst Areva Martin. "We know that prosecutors have been reluctant to charge parents in these school shooting cases, even though in some cases, like the Crumbley cases today, parents seem to have some responsibility."

Their defense attorneys will have to "show that these parents acted responsibly," Martin said, adding it is "an uphill battle for this defense team."

[jackd]

Unless the evidence is they gave the kid the gun, I don't see the charges sticking.

[LFC]

Dec 4, 2021 21:11:11 GMT jackd said:

Unless the evidence is they gave the kid the gun, I don't see the charges sticking.

Any feeling on the odds for civil suits?

[jackd]

Civil suits based on negligence have a much better chance of success. Of course the parents probably don't have enough assets to compensate, even marginally, anyone involved.

[LFC]

Dec 5, 2021 3:08:05 GMT jackd said:

Civil suits based on negligence have a much better chance of success. Of course the parents probably don't have enough assets to compensate, even marginally, anyone involved.

Ugh. The fact that these people would ever be allowed to own a firearm again frosts me to no end.

[goldenvalley]

Forget the optics of sending this card out when you are a Congressmember from Michigan after the shooting in Oxford High School.  What sane person sends this out as a holiday greeting?

[andydp]

Dec 6, 2021 4:52:14 GMT goldenvalley said:

Forget the optics of sending this card out when you are a Congressmember from Michigan after the shooting in Oxford High School.  What sane person sends this out as a holiday greeting?

Its how you "own the libs".

[LFC]

Dec 6, 2021 14:00:23 GMT andydp said:

Its how you "own the libs".

That's just messed up. They really have no decency.

[andydp]

Dec 6, 2021 14:33:53 GMT LFC said:

Dec 6, 2021 14:00:23 GMT andydp said:

Its how you "own the libs".

That's just messed up. They really have no decency.

As I'm sure you’ve noted many of the 2A folks love to make it known they have weapons. 

I have been tempted for years to remind them unless they live in their house 24/7 or have an alarm system, those signs and bumper stickers only say one thing:  "Come in.  Free Guns !!

 

[LFC]

Here's a bit of information on the state of state-level laws on securing firearms. It's pretty abysmal. Scroll down to "SECURE GUN STORAGE LAWS BY STATE, 2021" for an interactive map.

While unintentional shootings by children are a heartbreaking part of America’s gun violence epidemic, there is no centralized database that tracks how many children gain access to unsecured guns and harm themselves or others. Everytown started such a database in 2015 by carefully tracking media reports to explore this crisis in depth.

According to our #NotAnAccident Index, there were at least 2,070 unintentional shootings by children under 18 years old between January 1, 2015, and December 31, 2020, resulting in 765 deaths and 1,366 injuries.2 In 2020, gun sales surged 64 percent, and this rise—coupled with school and childcare center closures as a result of the pandemic—has increased the risk for all household residents: the number of unintentional shooting deaths by children was 31 percent higher from March through December 2020 than during the same period in 2019. And 2021 is on target to exceed even that dispiriting high, with the highest number of January to June incidents of the past seven years.

Researchers recently estimated that the number of children living in households in the United States with at least one loaded, unlocked gun has gone up from 4.6 million in 2015 to 5.4 million in 2021.3 When a child gets their hands on a gun and unintentionally injures or kills themself or others, the physical and psychological trauma is long-lasting, affecting the victims and their families, the child who accessed the gun and their family, and the extended communities of both. And yet this type of entirely preventable tragedy occurs roughly once per day in the United States.

Many gun owning parents' perceptions of security is badly skewed from reality. Formatting and bold mine.

Results Of 6721 adults invited to participate, 4030 completed the survey. Of these, 280 had a firearm in their homes and had a child aged 13 to 17 years who participated in the survey. The mean (SD) age of parents was 45.2 (7.2) years; of children, 15.0 (1.4) years. The sample included 159 male adolescents (weighted percentage, 60.8%; 95% CI, 53.8%-67.8%) and 129 male adults (weighted percentage, 48.3%; 95% CI, 40.9%-55.6%).

- In 33.9% (95% CI, 26.7%-41.2%) of households, an adolescent reported that they could access a loaded firearm in less than 5 minutes.

- In homes where all guns were locked, 23.7% (95% CI, 12.3%-35.1%) of adolescents reported that they could access a loaded firearm in less than 5 minutes.

- Overall, 70.4% (95% CI, 63.7%-77.1%) of parents reported that their child could not access a household firearm.

- In households where parents said their child could not access a firearm, 21.8% (95% CI 13.8%-29.7%) of their children indicated that they could access a firearm within 5 minutes and 14.9% (95% CI, 8.9%-20.9%) indicated that they could access a firearm in more than 5 minutes but less than 1 hour.

[LFC]

This may be retreading some old ground but it turns out that teaching children gun safety isn't necessarily very effective. I guess this shouldn't be a shock since teaching children anything isn't necessarily effective, especially if the temptation is great.

Children who participate in gun safety programs often ignore what they learned when encountering a real firearm, according to a Rutgers School of Nursing study.

The report, published recently in Health Promotion Practice, reviewed 10 studies on the effectiveness of strategies for teaching gun safety to children ages 4 to 9. The researchers found such programs do not reduce the likelihood that children will handle guns when they are unsupervised, that boys are more likely than girls to ignore gun-safety rules and that few studies exist of gun-safety programs for children beyond the fourth grade.

Included among the findings from previous studies is that 85 percent of gun-owning parents did not practice safe gun storage and 72 percent believed their young children could differentiate a toy gun from a real gun.

The gun safety training approaches studied included "just say no" in which authority figures tell children to stay away from guns; skills-building approaches, which teach children skills to resist touching guns; and knowledge-based programs in which children are provided with video or printed material about gun safety.

"Most of the studies evaluated knowledge-based learning in which children sit in a classroom and are shown videos or handed papers with activities or information to teach them rules to follow if they should come across a gun," said study co-author Cheryl Holly, a professor at Rutgers School of Nursing. "The studies found that even children who initially followed the rules after the training did not use the safety skills they learned weeks later when placed in a room with a nonfunctional gun. This leads us to question if young children can retain the gun-safety skills they learn over time."

[goldenvalley]

Dec 6, 2021 16:52:22 GMT LFC said:

This may be retreading some old ground but it turns out that teaching children gun safety isn't necessarily very effective. I guess this shouldn't be a shock since teaching children anything isn't necessarily effective, especially if the temptation is great.

Children who participate in gun safety programs often ignore what they learned when encountering a real firearm, according to a Rutgers School of Nursing study.

The report, published recently in Health Promotion Practice, reviewed 10 studies on the effectiveness of strategies for teaching gun safety to children ages 4 to 9. The researchers found such programs do not reduce the likelihood that children will handle guns when they are unsupervised, that boys are more likely than girls to ignore gun-safety rules and that few studies exist of gun-safety programs for children beyond the fourth grade.

Included among the findings from previous studies is that 85 percent of gun-owning parents did not practice safe gun storage and 72 percent believed their young children could differentiate a toy gun from a real gun.

The gun safety training approaches studied included "just say no" in which authority figures tell children to stay away from guns; skills-building approaches, which teach children skills to resist touching guns; and knowledge-based programs in which children are provided with video or printed material about gun safety.

"Most of the studies evaluated knowledge-based learning in which children sit in a classroom and are shown videos or handed papers with activities or information to teach them rules to follow if they should come across a gun," said study co-author Cheryl Holly, a professor at Rutgers School of Nursing. "The studies found that even children who initially followed the rules after the training did not use the safety skills they learned weeks later when placed in a room with a nonfunctional gun. This leads us to question if young children can retain the gun-safety skills they learn over time."

Back in the days of yore my dad was a hunter.  He didn't keep his shotgun and rifle in any gun safe, not sure they existed back then.  My brother and I knew where they were (in the depths of a closet); we knew the ammo was in a separate place.  What stopped us from touching them was the knowledge that we'd be in huge trouble if we did. He made that clear while also taking us target shooting and teaching gun safety. Seeing some dead animals that were shot brings home the danger of misuse too. You need the gun owners to do the teaching, not some video at school.

[Bact PhD]

Further re that JAMA article LFC cited (bold mine):

Parents who owned guns reported having a mean (SD) of 6.6 (8.1) firearms in the home; 84 (weighted percentage, 48.7%; 95% CI, 39.6%-57.7%) reported at least 1 household firearm was stored unlocked. Among households with any firearms unlocked, 43 (weighted percentage, 53.8%; 95% CI, 40.4%-67.2%) reported that at least 1 unlocked firearm was loaded (ie, 26.2% of all households had a loaded and unlocked gun)

(rant on) Dear Parents: Your kids are NOT f***ing STUPID. They know DAMN well where the unlocked and loaded firearms are, even if it’s only one, they know where it is.

(rant off)